Subscribe in a reader | Subscribe by Email I read about Parameswara being a Muslim in today’s paper (NST I think). It was in the article about treasures of the royalties.
However, I think there’s no definitive proof of his conversion and some even say that it was his son who converted, while others said that Parameswara converted in his elderly age. It is also unclear if Parameswara was a Malay, of mixed-parentage, an Indian or from other race.
Any comments or does it not matter anyway?
hi Mr.Poobalan…
nice to meet you in blogging world..
back to the topic-
Parameswara never convert to Islam, that’s the fact…
even years before, if i have not mistaken a Malay professor from UM mentioned that in The Star newspaper…
on the other news, pls view here- http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/82470
Folks
Does it matter if Parameswara converted or not ? Stop indulging in such utterly useless historical debates and “Syok-sendiri” nonstaglic trip.
Indians (and Malays) too like to live in the past and glory historical figures and deeds long gone.
Quit wasting our time and move on.
If you ask my opinion on this, I think we can find all kind of crackpot theories on ancient Malaysian history (like Hang Tuah was a Chinese, Parameswara a Hindu,etc). The easy part is in making the claim, difficult part is proving them.
So let’s move on…
It is not nostalgia. “those who forget history are condemned to repeat it” – George Santayana
please have some knowledge before you comment. Genuine historians are doing their best to identify the TRUTH, and not create a totally untrue story.
MP: You can get some info on various wordpress setup options just by googling. But no worries, pls email me or give a call and i’ll explain further.
Taking current body snatching maybe Parameswara was hindu, when he died they buried him as Muslim…hehe.Bro i want to know more about word press before installing it in my web. Can you help me on this? What is different between having word press and without having it?
truthful writeup from someone….. for your reading pleasure….
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Once again our government had to wipe out any references to a famous Melaka prince as being Hindu and belonging to the powerful Hindu empire Sri Vijaya. So all of a sudden our museums, school text-books etc. all refer to Parameswara as a Malay prince.
What race ruled or did not rule is besides the point. What is important is not butchering history to create your own truths. You cannot change your race even if you convert – Parameswara could have been responsible for Umno’s proud heritage of ‘Ketuanan Melayu’. If this is what it is based on, there is no ‘Ketuanan Melayu’. The lineage of Melaka Sultans are Indians, not Malays. It is no secret that Parameswara was an Indian and a Hindu prince. It is clear from records that Parameswara never converted to Islam. He was an Indian Hindu who fled Palembang in Sumatra to eventually found Melaka circa 1400 AD. It was Sri Maharaja who converted himself and the court of Melaka to Islam, and as a result took on the name of Sultan Muhammad Shah sometime after 1435.
The most famous of Indian Hindu Kings were Rajaraja Chola and his son Rajendra Chola who invaded Southern Thailand, Kedah, Perak, Johor and Sumatra about 1000 AD. This is Raja-raja Chola – the Indian/Hindu kings and not Raja Chulan – a Malay king.
But what is really sad is that our children are taught as though Malaysian history suddenly began in 1400 with an Islamic Melaka. We are led to believe that the Indians and Chinese first arrived on the shores of Malaysia in about 1850 as desperate indentured labourers, farmers and miners. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The cultural influences of India in particular, and China, in South East Asia span over 2,000 years, starting perhaps with the arrival from India of the Brahmanical prince/scholar – Aji Saka in Java in AD78, through to Vietnam, Cambodia (Indo China), Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Bali, Borneo, Brunei and beyond.
The findings at Bujang Valley speak of an ancient Indian/Hindu presence in Kedah. There were Chinese settlements in Pahang and Kelantan around the 13th -14th century and in 12th century in Singapore. The early Brunei Sultanate had a Chinese Queen. One need not ponder at length the implications of Angkor Wat and Borobudur or that 40%-50% of Bahasa Malaysia comprises Sanskrit/Tamil words.
An extremely important archeological find that pointed to one of the greatest empires in history – the Raja Cholan empire that ruled from the Maldives through India, Sri Lanka and right down to South East Asia found deep in the jungles of Johor a few years ago and made headlines in the mainstream newspapers in 2005, suddenly disappeared from the news…..
The time has arrived for us to record our history as the facts tell us and not as we would like to wish it for. The truth will never hurt anyone. Lies, always will.
And VJ this is from some reknown international history expert ? I sometimes do not know whom to blame, whether the writer of such article or the stupid fools who believe it.
it shd not ‘hurt’ you much unless you’re an useless islamic militant…
Bro
Add to the debate intellectually or keep off. Don’t waste people’s time with such uselss comments and post lah.
First off there might be some part’s in the history which are unable to provide more concrete details.Parameswara might not possibly be indian,but he could be a hindu.There were strong presense of Hindu culture in indonesia,mynmar and thailand.These people,follow certain hindu tradition’s still in bali,but ethinically they are not indians.It’s never clearly indicated which royal lineage of india paremsawara come from.It’s must be noted,before the spread of Islam,Javanese had indian names.Hindusim is never one religiom,it’s syncratic religion meaning fusion of many religions.History had shown war’s fiercly fought between different Hindu king’s,each worshipping specific deity.when a nation is defeated,the conceading nation had to follow suit with the worship of deity of their conquering armies.It’s evident in history when the chalukaya’s invaded tamil nadu(ask them to worship vishnu not shiva),when the chola kings invaded sri lanka sinhalese and andra prades (to worship shiva only).Some of them might not know what is the fuss all about,as today we worship every deity,but this is not case back then.The are many schools of thought.I will just say a few (Saivasim (worship of shiva,they will belive you can gain moocha (release from worldy attachments find nirvana only via shivan),Vaishanvisum (moccha via vishnu or his incanatrations like krishna or ram only,they regard shivan as an assocaite deity,Shaktisim moocha via worship of the divine mother like amman,kali and so on)There are endless list of many others
,its noted that during pre-independance india,during the adminstration of colonial british,it’s never classified as one religion “hinduism”.There is no evidence deepavali celebrated nation wide,it’s only celebrated certain part’s of north-east region like gujrat.After,indian adminstation took over,they decided to “Nationalise Deeepavali” for many poltical reasons.Most of indians in malaysia belong to the low-caste tamil background,of course there are some exceptions.The tamils from india,most of them are of low-caste ancestory,they are classified as those doing menial labour,cleaning the toilet,carrying corpse and so on.As,for the tamils in sri lanka,they are of higher caste deriving from nobles,merchants,scholars and so on.Most of the ceylon tamil’s migrated due to the civil war.Even ,Raja chola was a high caste tamil emperor.It’s written in his choronology,low-caste are specifically reserved to menial task’s.If my ancestor’s had been cleaning the toilet,I will have do the same.Institaions of learning and war-fare are reserved for the High-caste indians only.Even,in india, this is clearly evident.The powerfull caste’s still play as a king-maker behind conventional
politics.The point,I want to put across being an indian descendant of low-caste ancestors(most of us are),how I am supposse to be proud of the achivement’s of high-caste hindu kings,where my ancestors treated merely as a foot-stool? Here,we are taught a very different form of hindusim than india.? when,indians protested in KLCC,they asked Bal thackrey (he is a marathi,leader of hindu right-wing party called Shivashena)how they will react.He replied ” U want us go to war for a bunch of harijans (meaning low-caste). From all the Hindu party’s in India, Bharatya Janatal Party (BJP),RSS,Shiva shena,Vishwa Hindu prasawad all of them are led by high-caste leaders,the low-caste are reserved for specific tasks only.
we were part of hindu caste system,which place us right at he bottom,it is the fact.
Ravikumar
Yes, I agree with your views.
I think many Malaysian Indians do not understand Hinduism and its history. They also do not understand the real situation in India, choosing to believe the fantasy put out by Kollywood and Bollywood.
Not only that we are considered as low-caste but the north indians in India generally look down upon the South Indians. Even in South,the caste consciousness is so strong that it influences every aspect of their life.
You guys got to understand that when the British brought us down to Malaysia, they took those who are poor and uneducated. As such some Indians consider us as inferior to them and look down on us.
Just look at the situation in Singapore. Those days the South Indians consisted of about 90% of the overall Indian population. But when PAP opened up Singapore for foreigners, they brought in high-caste North Indians and they slowly but surely started to control the original Singaporean Indians. These newcomers look down upon the Singaporean South Indians as low-caste. Now the Singaporean Indians are looked down in their own country by their fellow Indians who just emigrated in. As the PAP govt values the newcomers more, the North Indians are becoming more and more powerful and influential.
Talking about Hinduism, do you guys know that some South Indians consider it as an imported religion ? Do you know that in Ramayana and Mahabaratha, the bad guys were the dark-skinned and ugly looking folks ? And you know why ? There are people who say that these epics is actually the story of fair-skinned Aryan (north Indians) fighting the dark skinned original Indians (Dravidians). Also it is said that Siva always being pictured in poor light in the both stories as he is the god of Dravidians.
How far it is true ? I leave it to you. But please google, there are a lot of reference for this claim. In fact there is strong support for this in South India even today.
so wht you written here are taken from some history expert in Google ? Dun you look like an idiot based on your early comment and now ? (gosh….. u have ppl reporting to you uh…..pity)
Btw , Ramayana’s hero is dark as well .
It’s matter of ‘colonization’ . Roman’s rule most middle east but now ? So are they better off now ?
Archeology has proven that the most ancient Harappa civilization worshipped Lord Siva . So could that be those worshipping Siva are those weak ?
Siva is not much considered as southern god but Murugan is .
Hello VJ,
My experiance is derived from exposure staying in
india,for considerable period of time to pursue my education.I am no expert in this field,Through my interaction with various communty,I was able to gather details.
My dear friend,I do agree the Rama is dark…the question was he black.He’s portryed as “illuminating Dark Blue” in colour.I have never seen diety with dark colour in any of the temples,It’s clearly stated in the “Rig Vedas and Upansishads”.I do agree,there are artist impression showing Kannan or krishnan in a “Black” skin tone.
yes,you are 100% right,the Harrapan civilation indeed worshipped Shiva…do note this point,shiva only as a primary deity.In,term’s of Lingustically,cultrally (in terms of artfects and lay-out of temples) they are more related to the south-indians (dravidans).Their
ancient lauguage draw’s greater parallel
to the Tamil-dravidan civilasation.anthropoligist,had suggested dravidans might be ancient civilastion in harrapon,with arrival of semi-normadic aryans,they were defeated push to the south.It will suprise to u know that sanskrit lauguage does not have one similarity to harrapan lauguage,whereas the tamil…(I am not taking about current modern tamil laugauge,the sang-era tamil…there lot of simalrity on usage of lauguages from harrapan).You must ask,yourself after harrapan,why was
shiva never glorifyed as primary deity?
As,for your notion,that Shiva is not glorified as southern deity it is inaccurate.(for your info:south india comprise of Tamil Nadu,Pudhu chari,Kerela,Lakshadeep islands,karnataka,Andrah Pradesh,though lakshadeep islands and pudhu chari are sometimes not indicated)
Murgan is deity of tamils,but he is not the primary deity.Tamils are largest followers of shaivasim (worship of shiva),As,for the overrall population in tamil nadu,they worship mainly shivan as a prmary deity.
It’s true the majority of hindu population in singapore and malaysia tend to worship murgan more.As for the Kannadas and telgus they worship more towards vishnu and he’s incanarations like Ram and Kannan.The malayalis they mainly worship ayyapan.It’s also noted that Murgan’s worshipped in certain area’s in Tamil-nadu.But the concept of shavisim,whoever u worship.
.u wanna get moocha, u must worship shivan do that.I suggest,you either travel to india,to see for yourself.
Ravikumar, my reply was to Killer actually (new here ? fyi Killer and me are ‘old’ friends and always argue …. dun worry ya..) .
Since we crossed roads , let me say hello and some points to share….
I dont have to go India now as i been before . There’re radical hindus in north worshipping Sivan . The point in this context is that Sivan originated from north. ‘Shaivam’ could have evolved more in south later ….. agreed .
Ramayana and Mahabharatha are beutiful epics and not only here but i’ve seen ppl arguing about south discrimination .
It is said those lands above India (middle east) were under one umbrella . This may explain why middle east and north Indians are alike in apprearance..etc .
In Mahabharatha , ‘Thritirastinan’s’ wife said to be originated from somewhere middle east (Kantharam) . Some historians say Aryans were from middle east and chased Dravidan (whom were living in northen) to southern . Some say Aryan were indeed north Indians but differ in size and skin colour . The latest i heard is that Aryan colonization didnt happened ….hahahha …. sounds interesting ? Historical points never end .Bcos nowbody in the past left concrete evidence in thumbdrive .
Btw , dont worry too much . In the age of cyberspace there’s no such thing as dark-loser and white-smarter ……
VJ
What is the relation between my comments here and my professional responsibility ?
BTW my comments on this subject are not lifted from the internet but gained from many books that I had read on the topic too. I am merely providing supporting evidence to my assertions. You are free to verify my claims.
Siva is not considered as a Dravidian god ? This statement only goes to show the shallowness of your knowledge on Hindusim.
“What is the relation between my comments here and my professional responsibility ? “….I am not to sure,I follow this question?
Maybe,you can share with us,why do assume shiva is not a dravidan diety? are u saying that Raja cholan never spread shaivasim? The ancient Harrapan civilastation does not have
any parrellel to dravidan civilastion….I do agree,
shaivasim is popular in south-india,but many of oldest holy sites of shivan is found in the north…do note,this sites existed before the advent of Aryan civilastion.This is
actually debated by different scholars of veda’s.some classify shivan as northen deity.Are
you saying thiruvasagan (tamil hyms of shiva) which composed somewhere around 9th centuary,does not really shiva as
a tamil god? Thiruvasagam is collection of hyms for shiva deity,by tamil saints..63 to be precise…
have nothing further too add,as you say my knowledge is indeed shallow….have great weekend
It does not matter to me even if shivan is japanese god! If u like to pray shivan u pray to him,u wanna pray murgan u do so.what does it matters? I am tired,I am really am.My week,is finally over…looking forward to the week-end…end of the day,waht makes u happy matters
Just some thing’s for you to think? we,tamils in india,are always looked down upon by hindi-speaking majority in india.we only form of 6% of the total india population.we are minority in india itself.
…It’s noted they had tryed to destroy the tamil laugauge,by forcing Hindi lauguage on the Tamil nadu population.The current chief minster of tamil-nadu,karunathi was stripped naked and kicked right on his face by the police,till this day he suffer dysfunctional in his right eye.This happend during the era of Prime minster indria ghandhi (high-caste brahmin).The richest tamil in india is shiva nadar around us$3 billion (who’s of royal blood,of land-lords ),Tatpramandam Ananda Krishan the richest tamil in the world,third richest man in south-east asia around us$8 Billion,from improvished family in brickworks.The aryans (the north indians),had always lord upon the dravidans>>>except in the era of emperor raja chola..(do,note his mother come’s from the kingdom of chandagranth…state next to punjab.he’s techniclly half-aryan.His mother inherited a might naval fleet as a dowry.The chinese admiral zheng he,describe’s in his chornicles about raja chola.”he had lighter skin,with pointed nose and prominent eye’s.”His skin tone and pointed nose,clearly pinpoint that he’s not of 100% Dravidan stock.Most of us are tanned complexion,with less prominent feautres.Just go to any indian matrimonial site,and they will ask you what is your caste and varanas.An indian poltican,lal bahdur shastri had
one’s said “The indian diaspora population in malaya (this comment was made around in 1963)
are like cattles…they go wherever they is green pastuer..but they don’t know which pedigree they belong to” pedigree means what is your social status
….even,in application form today in india,they ask you what is your caste..
Ravana had dark-skin complexion and stud nose..(typical feature of our people) and his devotee of shiva (shaivasim is pratcisely widely by tamils) (telgus,kanddas worship vishnu vasihavansim)…His enemies,most of them are of fair complexion and
sharp noses..this is common feature of the aryans (north indians)The first Prime minster jawaharal Nehur onse said,Ramayana is reference of the first war fought between aryans and dravidans (tamils).
yup about the first war …. that’s why aggressive Dravidans dislike ‘Kamban’ in the sense that he brought in Ramayana in Tamil version knowing it’s sort of giving upper hand to north .
I believe this topic is more for historic knowledge sharing and not to undermine any groups …. let’s keep it that way . I said before and will say again that caste based politics may suit TamilNadu but not here or elsewhere .
agreed,point taken
Ravi
I think you mistook my comments directed to VJ as questioning your points. Acually I am debating in support of your arguments.
Mr Killer,
My apologies then,have a great week-end
In my history studies & research at university some 20 plus years ago, I came across evidence that “Parameswara” was only the original title of the Melaka ruler and while this title is of Sanskrit origin and suggests a Hindu connexion, this view is not conclusive. In fact, other than this title, the first ruler of Melaka seems to be quite anonymous. This title appears again in another generation as “Seri Parameswara Dewa Shah”. The consort’s title would have been “Seri Parameswari” and this has survived to this day in the modern title of “Seri Paduka Baginda Raja Permaisuri Agung”.
I am not a history professor but whether Parameswara was Hindu or Jew matters little now, given the passage of history. It is difficult to verify such information due to the absence of proper written historical documents from that era.
However, have look at this link from wiki. Very informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parameswara_(sultan)
And also one from the STAR.
http://161.139.39.251/akhbar/history/1999/st99802.htm
Dear Killer,
Would like to clarify that the origins of man dated many centuries ago, claim that 1st man was born in either China or Europe, I should say that Malaysia is more closer to CHina then Europe….therefore actual origins of Parameswara is oriental or hindu mix chinese in nature – in fact malays from sumatra is actually a mixture of hindus and chinese from china/india. Sumatra was discovered way back in 12th century before the hindus/chinese depart from sumatra to singapore and then discover melaka…..as for Hang Tuah i can bet he’s related to Hang Li Po whom is actually a chinese. So our origin malays in malaysia have a bit of chinese and hindu blood in them-check out their DNAs as we are going to table a DNA Bill soon!!!!
I want to write concerning this Nadar community in Malaysia, history says that they are called a low caste and not allowed in the temple, nowdays they became so cruel and so pride about their caste system,especially among Christians in Methodism and Anglicanism,in Methodist they called TAC(Tamil Annual Conference),this nadar people looking down on other caste………..Majority of TAC commitee members from Nadar origin,i say to every Nadar that read this,pls read your own history first before pretend to be somebody,once you are called a untouchable,so why u so proud to be Nadar????IN ipoh this Nadar build a big Methodist church,this church are caste oriented church, they so stupid but pretend to be wise,they so happy if Tirunelveli nadar christian pastors ministering to them,whether u Nadar, Thevar, Kalar….etc ……….pls read your own caste history first before low esteem other race….
Dear Balan,
Hehehe..why so serious? it seems like you had been dumped by a Nadar caste gal…chill bro. Anyway, just for your information I’m a Nadar and would like to clarify about my caste thingy. Actually there are two type of Nadar; Marumeri Nadar (lower caste) and the Nadar (higher caste) itself. I do not know much about Marumeri Nadar, but in India, Nadar is a powerful community with business related livehood. Tsk..anyway, as others may agree, we may not know our real origin..low caste or higher caste, does it help us here (malaysia)? So…since the past is so blurred, why there is a need for hatred emotions to dominate the poor Malaysian Indians? C’mon…we’re already being looked down by other races, don’t you think it’s time to join our hands together? Just my two cents worth thought….
hi parthiben,
hahaha, well i’m not into the caste stuff, and not been dumped so far 🙂
i think the past is records that can be helpful in understanding issues and clarifying things. not always hatred emotions if we can separate emotion from the facts.
I heard that SPM students are suppose to pass their sejarah (history). But the History is unclear. I am 20 and i don’t feel bad not scoring an A for history .