Malaysiakini: With just days to go before the elections, how do you rate your chances?
S Subramaniam: The chances are good. Delegates have assured me of their support. But I will continue to see them till the last day. This is the campaign period, it is a very important time. But it is reassuring.
Are you in a disadvantaged position, given the fact that you are going against two candidates who are seen as being the president’s men?
I don’t think that any of the two candidates are ‘Datuk Seri’s men’… that is not the problem at all. Because I have even fought the president. But what is important is that both the candidates and I are having a democratic process elections. We are campaigning in a democratic way… but of course the biggest campaigner in this elections is (S) Samy Vellu. He is the one who has come into the fray and started to campaign for (G) Palanivel against Subramaniam, against may be even (S) Sothinathan. That is the unusual thing in this.
I don’t see it as a problem (battling the duo) but my time is taken up to respond, reply and explain to the delegates these unfounded allegations that are being made by the president. As far as the candidates are concerned, they go around just like me, meeting delegates. But I have a very strong response from the delegates, because they are interested in seeing change, a change for the better in MIC.
Why should they vote for you?
I don’t want to brag… but I have the best experience among the three. I have been in the position of deputy presidency and I have contested many elections in the case of the deputy presidency. I was first elected in 1982 and every time there was a contest (since then) I have won, except in 2006. The previous occasions were different, contests were taking place for continued leadership.
But this time, the whole thing is different because Samy Vellu has announced that he would give up or retire after the deputy president is elected in 2009. This is a critical election. This is a critical time. The delegates have to see that they choose the right person, not only as deputy president but in the event he (Samy Vellu) steps down to take over the leadership of the party.
The president said he will step down in 2012 only if Palanivel wins. Does that mean if you or Sothinathan are elected, he will stay on?
That is what it is supposed to be (meant). But it is wrong. Because if you give your word publicly, it is supposed to be carried out regardless of who gets elected. It cannot be based on the fact that ‘I am campaigning for so and so, (therefore) so and so must be elected’. It is wrong. But the most important thing is, he has said many things over many times. First, he said he will retire after the deputy president is elected in September. That is in print and carried by all the media. I think that was his intention.
Then he said he wants to train the deputy president for one year… that is also in public records. Then the next time, he said he will go away in 2012, and the last time he said, he will go away only in 2015. All that is not important. He has said on the day he was elected (in March) that he will retire after the deputy presidency is filled. I hope as a leader, he will keep his word.
Is Sothinathan’s entry into the race a ploy to break your votes?
Many people have told me that. Many people have asked me that. I really don’t know what is going on between Samy Vellu, Sothinathan and Palanivel.
As you know, their relationship has been strong… so I really don’t know. But all that I know is that it started off that way, Sothinathan campaigned saying that Samy Vellu is a father figure and later he said ‘No, he (Samy Vellu, left) should move’ (step down) and that he (Sothinathan) wants to change things.
Then Samy Vellu did not campaign against Sothinathan in the first instance, it was only against me. But now it is against both of us. So I really don’t know what is going on. That clarification has to come from them. As I see, my votes cannot be split. It will be a solid vote. Sothi cannot split my votes.
It is being said that Sothinathan and you are targeting the same caste votes (by virtue of being Gounders)…
In all the years that I have been in politics, I have never used any caste-based organisation for my success. Never used. I know there are caste organisations which are social in nature. I have never ever used them for political purposes. Anybody can ask any of the caste-based organisation in the country if they wish to. (I) never ever used them. My interaction with them, my networking with them is through the party, my party has been the base. Through MIC, I network with all people…
I have known all these people through the party and party activities. But if it happens that these people who are supporting me also happen to come from different social organisations, it doesn’t matter. So there is no way Sothinathan is going to break my support because it is based on my personal relationship with all these people and my contribution towards them through the party. So there is no way anyone can succeed in breaking it (the votes). They tried in all the previous elections.
Of late, it has become a trend when somebody wants to go for elections, especially it started in 2006, they will quickly go and see the leadership of some social organisations. I won’t say it is caste-based organisations, I call these social organisations… and they (aspiring candidates) will go and see them and coax some leaders (of the organisations) to see if they can give them support. But the grassroots will not break up, no matter who asks, they will support me.
Is this practice of caste politics healthy for MIC and the Indian community?
As I said, I term them social organisations because their objectives are social. If it is not social but political, I think the Registrar of Societies and the government must do something about it. They are registered as social organisations for social purposes, educational, family development and so on. But if it is for politics based on caste, then the government should do away with such things, it is a retrogressive and not progressive concept.
But I believe that these are social organisations, my conviction is that I have never used these organisations for my political advancement. You can talk to any of the leaders, I mean I don’t know all (of them), but I know these people and I interact with them through the party.
You have been accused of practising caste politics, even by the president.
I will dare him to say this in the debate he challenged (me to) and (which) I accepted. Fix it quickly. Because I have never dealt with any social organisations for my political success. He is probably the user (of caste politics). I am not sure.
He probably is the user and that’s why he thinks others are doing it. I dare him and I will debate with him. I think he should have whichever organisation he is talking about to be present there (at the debate).
So you are keen on having this debate with him.
Yes. If there are continued unfounded allegations based on hearsay, no basis… I want to clear some of these things with him, I am prepared for it any time, in fact, I am waiting for the date.
Initially, there was talk that a deal was struck between the two of you, the president would remain neutral. Was this related to Nesa Cooperative’s injunction which prevents Maika Holdings from selling its insurance firm?
I would like to explain this very clearly. There was no deal (between us). When I saw the party face a disastrous defeat in the general election in 2008, there was a case of hopelessness for the members and the party. I decided not to do anything to further erode the strength of the party.
On the contrary, I extended my hand in friendship though I was denied my rights so many times, I still extended my hand in friendship to Samy Vellu and told him that I am prepared to help rebuild, rejuvenate and re-brand the party, give it a new image, direction and focus… he volunteered to appoint me to the central working committee which I politely refused… that was the only deal we had, there was no personal deal. And he said he was thinking of retiring… no more general elections for him, that he told this very clearly to the prime minister in my presence.
Therefore there was an indication that he will not contest in the general election, and therefore he may not even contest even in the (MIC) presidential election. Later, I came to know that he was going to contest the president’s position. Many urged me to contest, but I said no because the party was weak and I did not want to cause any problems in terms of the strength of the party. And after being elected, he said that he will retire once the deputy president is elected. So there was no need for a contest. But if he did not contest, I would have contested for the presidency.
There was no other deal struck. But he went back on everything that he (said). None of the responsibilities were given to me. I asked for about 10,000 membership forms, not one form was given to me. The re-branding he did it himself along with Sothinathan (right)… so I did not know what was going on, and I had no role to play, (there was) no rejuvenation, no new concept, so I just left it. That was what happened.
The Maika controversy, let me clearly say that this was the third time they asked for a resolution to sell the insurance company. Previously, two times also they got the resolution. They never sold the company. It is only a gimmick they do (at) every (Maika) AGM just to convince people that they are going to sell the insurance company and pay back (the shareholders). I did not stop the first time or the second time when they passed the resolution.
The third time, I wanted them to be serious. Sell it. I wrote a letter… (which states) Nesa Cooperative fully supports the sale. I said if you want to sell it, do a valuation of the company… if possible, sell it to an Indian individual, entity, company or cooperative after the evaluation. If there are no Indians, then sell it to any Malaysian company or even (to a buyer) outside Malaysia. The court thought these were legitimate grounds.
Now if they want to sell, it appears they don’t want to sell, (for) they have not taken any measures apart from I took (to ensure the sale).
What I did was during the time when there was some apparent peace between me and Samy Vellu, with the cooperation of (Maika Holdings CEO and Samy Vellu’s son) Vel Paari (right), we met up with a company and discussed the sale… and they offered in writing to purchase the insurance company for RM149 million, RM20 million more than the price (Maika) had wanted to sell (earlier).
Without a whisper to me, within 24 hours, they decided to reject the offer (of RM149 million). God alone knows what was the basis. And it so happens that it was an Indian company (which made the offer). If they were serious, with the RM149 million offer, if they went to the court, the court would have thought this is the right thing and lifted the injunction.
So you never used the injunction as a political bargaining chip?
Definitely not. Why should it be? Because I have put it in writing, I have represented to the court, the documents are there, these (the conditions stipulated) are what I want …so you can see from the facts, it has never been used for politics. Because elections were coming, they were trying to use it against me… I am telling the members that if there is no injunction, they can sell it to anybody, at any price, there is nothing we can do about it. With the injunction, there is some protection.
There have been no efforts to sell the insurance company, if there has been any effort, nobody knows it, I don’t know it, they have not made it public. What is the secret? Now the situation is, foreign companies can also buy local insurance companies so they should take advantage of it.
Why is the president so opposed to the idea of you becoming No. 2 and taking over? What is the reason for this bitter feud?
There is no bitter feud. If I become the deputy, he has to accept it. You have to ask him this question. I can only forecast, I can only make guesses.
Obviously, it appears that he wants to continue in the leadership. When he talks about (stepping down in) 2012 and 2015, he thinks that he wants to be in the chair longer than what he had promised or publicly stated. That is the only reason, there cannot be any other reason.
Do you regret not taking him on for the presidency in March?
Yes, sometimes. Because now he is behaving like a candidate (for No. 2). I wish I had contested against him and had the opportunity to tell where he had not performed and where he went wrong.
But I am not doing all that (now), I am only answering his unfounded allegations . He is not a candidate, he is trying to be one. He is campaigning against me… I wish sometimes I had (challenged him).
Some feel that you did not take him on because of fear…
No. It was not fear. I made it (the decision not to contest) in the interest of the party. Even when I was dropped twice from (MIC’s list of candidates for) the general election though I was deputy president, I accepted that sadly. The decision was unjustifiable, but I accepted in the interest of the party and said ‘support Barisan (Nasional), leave me alone, the injustices that have happened to me, leave it with me’. That’s the position I took.
I have always placed the party’s interests above everything else. So you have to ask him (why he is not quitting), probably he thinks 30 years (as president) is not enough… he continues to claim that his services are required… some say he wants to put his son (Vel Paari) in a proper place (in the party before retiring). These are things I can only guess.
There are those who say MIC members are fatigued by this protracted battle between the two of you. Will this lead to a decline in support for you and to the delegates opting for a younger leader?
I think the delegates have the right to decide who is the better man. They have to use their overall judgment. They have to see who has the capacity to unite the party and make it better, who has the ability to unite the community, which is split into so many factions. Even politically, never before have there been so many parties claiming to represent the Indians. When I joined politics there was only one party claiming to represent the Indians.
So this is not a feud. I never started a feud. I have always placed party interests above everything else. That’s why I did not contest the presidency…I mean if a right-thinking president thinks the feud should end, then no matter who is elected, he should act graciously.
But I think the delegates can make a wise choice. They know who the candidates are. I am not using anybody to campaign for me and neither is Sothinathan, but of course the incumbent president is using Samy Vellu.
There is no feud, as far as I am concerned, I am not starting a feud. You can see that. But of course the president is trying hard to draw me into a war of words and all sorts of controversies. But I am prepared to face him anytime, anywhere.
There is a perception that you and the president have spent your entire political careers battling one another while neglecting the community…
That perception is wrong. I have not contested the presidency more than once. There is only been one contest for the presidency, even that, it was based on principles. There were mass suspension of branches, about 300 branches were closed. There were about 60,000 members thrown out of the party. I had requested for a reinstatement, otherwise as a matter of principle, I would contest.
Always after a party elections, I have forgotten the differences… 2006 was a classic example, I said ‘I have lost the elections, I accept it, I will continue my service through my division and that’s it’. Then people who have won, have the responsibility towards the community…
The Maika Holdings is one (issue), it was a plan that we set up 25 years ago jointly in the interest of the community. There was no feud at that time. I raised several tens of millions (of ringgit), everybody put in their full effort and we worked hard and the shares were sold for RM106 million at a time when the economy was not strong.
How did it happen? Not with one person, it was a united, joint effort. But after the company was set up, year in, year out, the operations were not profitable, the shareholders did not get any reward… I had no role in Maika Holdings after I helped in its establishment. It was the management. So to say the community was neglected is not true. What the leadership should do, those in leadership positions must ensure that after the elections, everybody gets united and party programmes carry on. Elections take place once in three years.
The late K Pathmanabhan and I wrote the paper on (how to set up and) run MIED as an organisation. It started well and so on. With MIED, there are very little complaints, except for all the allegations that funds are being siphoned off, etcetera, contracts being given, there are lots of complaints… I have nothing to do with it, I am not in the management. Even when I was in MIED’s management, nearly for about 10 years, the accounts were not given…
I am fully committed to helping the community. There are some people who think that their entire life is for politicking. Not me. There are times when there are contests, and there are times (when) you have to work for the community.
Do you believe that the president’s continued presence is detrimental to the party?
Maybe not in the initial 10 years or 15 years. But thereafter, there has been a series of problems. Definitely it has a negative impact on the party, especially when the 300 branches were closed and 60,000 members made party-less. And there have been other actions from time to time. And then there is the failure of projects like Maika Holdings… it has not helped at all in the equity position of Malaysian Indians. So everything that failed during his time definitely have a negative impact on the party, its performance, perception and support.
There is also the concern that should you win the deputy presidency, MIC will be further fragmented and suffer a similar fate to that of MCA.
My opponents, those who are campaigning against me will like to say that. Definitely not necessary. In every party, when there is a leadership change, after the change, everything has gone on well in most parties. In MCA, the takeover (new leadership) is after a very dismal performance in the general election. So there are some other problems there. But I am not a member of the government, I am not a member of Parliament. I am a party worker for so many years, I should be given an opportunity to test what I can do.
The groundswell is very strong for a change, I don’t believe there will be divisions. I can work with everybody who is in the party. Everybody will have a role in the party. There is no need for divisions after that. But the important thing is, MIC leaders alone do not form the community, the community is much bigger than that. If we reach out to the grassroots of the community, we will be strong.
I don’t (carry) any baggage. I have never amassed any wealth. I have nothing to worry about. The community knows all this. They know me, my nature, my character, my background and my transparency. And they also know how I can successfully lead and manage. Nesa Cooperative is an example (of this).
Do you believe the president will be gracious enough to accept your victory, or will he employ other means to oust you?
Please ask him that question. It is not the president’s wish to accept or not accept. It is the delegates who decide and it is the (party) constitution that is binding on everybody.
But do you foresee problems?
I can surmount any problems.
Despite the president naming his line-up, there is an overwhelming number of candidates vying for the positions. Is this open defiance of the president, and an exhibition of the desire for change?
Yes possible. I think so. I think contest is healthy, there is no harm. Everybody should be able to accept success and defeat, starting from the top to the bottom… and thereafter unite in the interest of the party. In the case of the president, of course it is a defiance. Ideally, he would like to have everybody settled on the terms that he has proposed.
You cannot have a president’s team. His election is over as president. The present election is deputy president, vice president and CWC members. Let them campaign. Let them convince members that they are capable of that position. Let them do the talking. Whoever wins, accept that.
Is the battle in MIC a fight for the throne when the kingdom is on fire? Is MIC still relevant?
MIC is relevant. It all depends on how the party is led, how the party can fire the imagination of its members that we can progress. Nobody can say that the MIC has played no role for the Indian community. MIC has played an important role, not only in the politics of this country, but in the upliftment of the Indian community and resolving their problems… but that does not mean there are no problems. MIC is relevant, but how it is led, with what kind of focus.
Have we resolved the problems of the Indians in a substantial manner? As a minority community, we cannot resolve many problems on our own, we require the strong intervention and support of the government… in some areas the government have been very responsive… but there has been no effective or positive result in the case of improvement of the Indian equity in the country… that’s something the government can help… which under the 1Malaysia concept, the prime minister is attempting to do.
But still the Indian community is reluctant to have confidence, because they want to see results first. So this is a tough challenge for everybody. But if this is done, continually and systematically, and if the Indian confidence is won, then we will be a relevant party, a renewed, relevant party. But this will take time.
Would you agree to the suggestion by some observers that any reform of the party or regaining of lost ground can only happen if the president steps down?
I would agree to a large extent.
So in your opinion he has to step down for changes to take place?
I hope he has the heart to do it. That is the reality on the ground.
Your contenders are also talking about change. What kind of changes do you want to bring about?
When I talk about change, it is to change for the better. Change alone is not good enough because you can change for the worse. So if they elect me, I am saying it will be change for the better. I will liberalise the party further. I will (provide) greater freedom for members to express their views whether I agree or disagree, I will hear them.
Basically, the change must be where party members are given new hope, aspirations and direction. The party must be a united and strong party, where members will have greater confidence that the future will be better. How will I do that? I say there is a place for everybody in MIC… we need everybody…unite the party for one objective to serve the Indians better…
I believe that I have the confidence of the community, no matter how they are split, I am confident they will believe and trust me to come together. Not in the case of the other candidates, especially if they are aligned with the president.
Some feel that MIC leaders, including yourself, are only interested in serving themselves and not the community.
This is a wild allegation or wrong perception… I did not come into politics to look after my interests. I was offered a (lecturer’s post) in Universiti Malaya. If I had taken that, I would have been a professor or head of department for certain. But I declined that offer because (former MIC president V) Manikavasagam wanted me to be full-time politician and insisted that I contest in a constituency where I would surely lose. That was the Damansara constituency which was never won by the ruling party. But when I contested in 1974, I won by an accident.
So it was never a question of looking after my personal interests. So what have I looked after? Anybody can check, in what way I have used my positions for my personal benefit. There is none. Here is a question of serving the people, I have done my best. But in the final analysis, it is the leader who charts the course. It is the leader, it is not only in MIC but also in Umno. You can see the difference when one is the deputy president and when one becomes the president. When one becomes the president, he has the freedom to chart a new course, policies may remain, but a new course…
(Former premier) Dr Mahathir (Mohamad, left) is a classic example. His predecessor was Hussein Onn who was a very good prime minister known for his righteousness, Mahathir was his deputy, hardly known for anything outside Malaysia. But when he took over… he was known worldwide and held in high esteem… so being a deputy is different from being a president… I have for example said that the first thing I would do if I become the leader of the party is to reduce the term of the president for three terms or nine years…
In your opinion, is the contest for No. 2 really a contest for the No. 1 post by extension?
Yes, in a long way… because the president is getting involved so deeply, so it must be seen as almost a contest for the presidency. It has to be accepted. Yes, he is deeply involved. It is his team, endorsed team, official team. What does it mean? So it is a contest like that.
With allegations of money politics being rampant, some have even accused you of being involved…
Against me? I have not heard any accusations against me… I don’t have the evidence. I hear that some money is being handed over… until 2006 elections, there was no money politics. Yes, 2006, money was handed over to delegates… I did not know until after the elections. But this year, I hear it earlier, but I don’t have the evidence…
What about allegations of delegates being threatened?
Of course, delegates being questioned – ‘Why did you go?’ ‘What is the reason?’ ‘Why your division met so and so’… there are people who also said, ‘Please, I will vote for you but I think we should not meet. If we meet, they will call me, harass me… speaking to me on the phone is enough’. So I tell them this is undemocratic…
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