Subscribe in a reader | Subscribe by Email Update on 27 June: The deceased is married (NST):
Elangesvaran is survived by his wife, V. Thanaletchumy, a 6-year-old son and a 11/2-year-old daughter.
The court also ordered the body to kept in the hospital until both parties present their case.
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Sorry guys, the original posting was meant to be a draft and I didn’t realise it was actually published. It just contained the news articles from Star and Malaysiakini. I have edited it now:
The issue here is the alleged conversion of B. Elangesvaran, (Malaysiakini said Elangesvaran Benedict) aged 34 and a Hindu while alive. The deceased was a used-car dealer says NST. He committed suicide 4 days ago (which in Islam is a major sin). According to the brother, Elangesvaran hanged himself.
The brother, S Selvam (brother is B., but he is S.?) aged 48, filed a summons to stop the state Islamic Religious Affairs Department, the Perak Islamic Religious Department and the Parit Buntar Hospital director and their workers and agents from claiming the deceased body or preventing him from conducting a Hindu prayer rites.
Hospital staff then informed him that deceased has converted at Penang Religious Affairs Department (how did the hospital know?) and the body cannot be released. So Selvam contacted Perak Religious Affairs Department (why not Penang?) for proof and confirmation, but only a police report and a letter was given. Selvem said:
“I was only served with a police report alleging that my brother had embraced Islam at the Penang Islamic Religious Deparment in Lebuh Pantai and a letter, with some scribbling allegedly done by Elangesvaran, that he had converted.
“The letter, however, did not contain my brother’s signature or thumbprint or the signatures of any witnesses to indicate that he had embraced Islam as required under the tenets of Islam,”
Thus he claims that there’s no way the authorities can withhold the body or prevent him from proceeding with the funeral.
Selvem says the family had no knowledge of Elangesvaran’s intention to convert. He says Elangesvaran was a practising Hindu till his death.
Now, what is the solution to this problem? There are two state agencies involved, thus making things complicated. The issue is on whom is the burden of proof is. Obviously the family does not need to prove anything since the deceased was by default an Hindu. So, the Penang Religious Affairs Department must provide proof (irrefutable one) that the deceased did indeed converted willfully. Police reports are not proof and so are scriblings in letters, since there would be proper records in the departments, for example on providing financial support to recent converts (saudara baru).
If the person converted while not in right frame of mind, would it count? He could have converted for many reasons – money, love, privileges, or the religion itself. If he did convert, he did not inform the parents, so what to do?
it’s a puzzle there for sometimes . Always the dead persons will be claimed have converted . Bcos they wont come alive to tell the truth .
Perhaps the religious officials should stop using dirty ‘dead’ ways to spread their believe.
Another messy episode.
You want to know my take on this ?
Why would the religious authorities want to claim this person’s body when there are others who died and get buried without a problem ?
There has to be a reason behind it and usually the dead person has converted at some point of time. Of course the majority converted due to the wrong reasons (materialistic,due to marriage, etc and not because they found Islam to be their true calling.
You guys might be surprised to learn that I know Moorthy reasonably well (don’t ask me how, top secret…). I also know another case that was nationally publicised involving a tug-of-war between husband and wife.
In most cases the persons in question did convert voluntarily and sometimes without the knowledge of their families. But sometimes the family members do know this but pretend not to know.
Let me tell you in the case of Moorthy, the wife knew the conversion. As you all know Moorthy was paralysed during CQB training. He converted because he could not find a cure and someone told him that by converting he could seek some help from a traditional Muslim healer. Obviously he didnt practise a Muslim lifestyle.
So to be fair, the religious authorities do have their point that there was a conversion and they do not do things without reasons.
However, the question is one of fairness and common sense. Such body snatching sends a very negative picture of Islam to the non Muslims. Also it is only fair that the body is released to the next of kin.
By having clearer rules, such messy episodes and much anguish can be avoided.
BTW since this is in Penang, can our hero Prof Ramasamy step in solve this issue or he will give the usual excuse of “Sorry I am a representative of all people not just Indians” ?
something to ponder…
that’s why its critical to inform people about the dangers of converting to Islam especially when the reasons are not “neverending love for Islam”. People can be cheated just like Moorthy (if what you say is true and its the first time I’m hearing this version).
Once converted, the next of kin is no more the old family, Killer. Such thing don’t exist once converted. If a convert dies, the state will cover the expenses for the burial if the convert has no other Muslim relation.
Prof Ramasamy will most likely pass it to the relevant EXCO to handle it.
I don’t buy the idea of people not knowing that converting into Islam is an one way street. Most times people convert knowingly and know that there is no way out. But what happens is that these people fail to look at the consequences at the later stage, prefer to look at the short term.
It is like robbing. It is not that the criminals do not know robbing is punishable by jail but they fail to think the consequences if they get caught.
To say that once converted the old family no more is unfair. A more humane way is to let the next to kin decide on the burial matters unless the deceased made specific arrangements otherwise.
Such cases is made difficult by the unreasonable behaviour of the family too. Many of them are often not bothered about these converts, effectively reject them from the family. But when they die, they suddenly appear to claim their bodies, sometimes for monetary reasons.
As for Moorthy, yes, many people do not know the actual story because media was more interested in sensationalising the issue rather than reporting in an objective manner. I think the Tamil newspapers’ reporting was disgraceful though I sympathised with Moorthy.
Moorthy was one of the 2 commandos selected for the Everest Expedition. This was no feat as the Special forces had a tough selection process to select the candidates. The other one was a Malay soldier. Moorthy told me that the only reason why these 2 commandos did not go to the peak was they were under instructions to let the glory to be shared by the civilians.
BTW, I am not sure if you guys heard this story about Everest. Apparently the reason why only Indians reached the top was because everyone was required to pray to the Hindu goddess (can’t recall the name, durga ?) before reaching the summit. It seems the Muslims refused to pray. According to Nepali customs you can’t reach the summit without the blessing of the goddess.
Anyway, the 2 soldiers were well rewarded by govt, army, commando and private sectors as well. Moorthy in fact bought a house (in Masjid Tanah I think) with the cash reward. Both were promoted.
But within months he was injured during a hostage rescue training when he fell back first onto a hard concrete floor in the (former) commando training center in Sg Udang (Melaka). He was paralysed.
He was then assigned to desk duties. But this injury drove Moorthy into a deep depression. He just couldnt take his fate as he was flying high and was very young at that time. He was almost suicidical.
He tried all kind of treatments and finally I guess he tried the bomoh. I don’t think he was cheated, I converted knowingly when he met the kadi in the camp. But that treatment too didn’t work. Of course his wife knew all about it but she denied it later.
When he died, the Islamic authorities in fact were accomodative at first. They told the wife to do all the Hindu rites to the bodies and later released it to the Muslim authorities for final burial. But she refused. In fact she and her relations almost created an ugly scene at the HKL by abusing the medical officials. This had resulted in the Muslims within the hospital viciny to come for help and confront them. Lucky for the wife, the commados arrived on time to defuse the situation.
Anyway since the case is on going, let’s see what happens. But watch my words, the authorities have proof that Moorthy had converted. In fact they had notified the wife too. I don’t think she has a ground to fight legally, only on humanitarian ground.
for your blunder against Prof Ramasamy , technically he wont involve .
Btw , in the case of Moorthy why didnt you blunder on MIC rep back then just like you attack the Prof ? Favaouratism ?? It’s ok ….it’s common in mic antway …i can understand .
well, i love to agree with you fully, but while many do not understand the impact of conversion. They think they can simply “walk” back into their original religion. Blinded the various reasons, they make the “mistake” of converting. However, I’m not talking about those who convert because they sincerely feel the calling of another religion.
as for the relationship with old family, the religion is quite clear that burial should be in islamic way. the next of kin has no right to decide, since the religion overrules individual claims. one can forget about humane or friendly gestures from the religious departments in this aspect. however the deceased family are invited to participate and witness the burial if they wish too. sure the convert can visit his/her parent during festive seasons, give money to his/her parents and so on, but that’s about it. in terms of property, and children custody its a messy affair.
i’ve not heard about this version of moorthy’s problem. nothing similar was mentioned in the malay or english papers. surprising that the department were accommodating enough to allow the wife to conduct rituals before handing over the body.
i have heard about the prayer to goddess Durga (there’s a name for her in Nepalese) as guardian of the mountain. Hmm..wonder why these guy never thought of this before sending a group to climb the mountain. In that case, how did those guys from UITM climbed Everest in 2004? did they pray to the lord as well?
we need to be a fact-based society . How do we define concersion ? If one whispers his malay fren that he/she is converted thru a bomoh does it mean he is converted ?
Any legal doc in the case of Moorthi to prove his conversion ??
Whether his wife knows or an angle knows is not the case here .
VJ
Please read the cases again lah….don’t just want to prove me wrong and end up with egg on your face.
In many case, the converts or their families were not arguing they didnt convert but they left Islam and never practised the religion. Their usual line is that the convert drank beer and consumed pork (a std line in such cases).
As for Moorthy, as I had said, wait for the court case for the JAIM to submit the proof.
agreed
good question.
Poobalan
The story behind Moorthy’s convertion only known to friends and relatives. But it is no secret, you can check with Indians who live in Sg Udang or Masjid Tanah in Malacca.
Obviously the wife is being less than truthful and hiding the reasons and even denying she knew the conversion at all. This doesnt make sense as Moorthy was wheel-chair bound and can’t move around without her.
One might recall that the wife was complaining about having difficulties in managing the family without the husband. But when offered a job with MINDEF she refused because she had to travel. She wanted a job right next to her house. I am not sure what she is doing now as I have lost touch. Now that this topic came out, I need to contact my friends to find out what’s going on.
As for the JAIS being accomodative in allowing the wife to carry out the funeral, well this was actually reported in the Tamil newspapers at that time. I am sure that others have read it.
Poobalan,
To answer you let me share the below story. I know one of the people in question but I can’t say which one.
This case was reported in the national press last year (I am not giving the names but you can easily find out).
These was these couple with kids who separated after a few years or marriage. The father took the kids away from the mother as they were attached to him.
The mother was upset and she decided to convert to Islam in order to get the kids back. She then converted and then filed a case with Syariah court. This is when the father went public with the help of the Tiger of Jelutong.
However, finally both of them decided to get together for the sake of kids now. So the case was closed.
The problem is she can’t retract her conversion. Worse of all, she also converted her kids. Several years from now we will see some teary eyed mother crying about injustice and how unfair Islam is.
For me, I have little sympathy for such people who manipulate religions or do it for personal gain. You must be willing to take responsibility for your own action. This is like a murderer is saying, ” I don’t know there is a death sentence for murder. I am sorry. Please don’t punish me and forgive.”….
I am sorry, I don’t buy the idea of people doing such things out of lack of knowledge. People who marry Muslims too can’t say they don’t know. For me you need to be responsible for your own action. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
There was no evidence and yet they buried the body in a Muslim cemetary.
It’s easy to bully an Indian, because no one stands up and fights. And so the body-snatching continues.
Are you sure ?
Ya when spineless people like you around sure….
Killer wont stand up for rights but will demand indians to fall flat down under ruling politicians feet …. what can we expect from a ‘mandor’ anyway …..
Am I sure about?