Subscribe in a reader | Subscribe by Email Looking at the way (i) TV3 potrayed the protesters (focusing on PAS and PKR MPs) only when the real culprits were the pseudo-UMNO GPMS and PEKIDA, plus bloggers like Mahaguru58, (ii) the animal-like antics of the protesters, (iv) the action of the police who seemed to encourage plan to storm the building, and (iv) the silence of the political parties, I get the impression that the real threat to national unity is Islam and its followers. It sounds terrible and my Muslim friends most likely will get upset, but that’s what I feel after seeing the attack by the protesters. If the “real” Muslims don’t do anything, I think your religion will be branded as the worst religion in the country. You guys talk about virtues and holier-than-thou values, but in reality demeaning others all the time. Just goes on to show the falsity of your following. If with barely 60% of the population you are behaving like this, imagine in 20 years time. We will be literally treated as slaves. Those protesters talk as if they are the only humans in the country and only their feelings count. What about the suffering of families of
converts? Why this double standards? Is this what your religion preaches?By the way, this is the question Mahaguru58 asks (errr…mahaguru is sanskrit word!) :
Do Malaysian Muslims go around poking their nose into the Non Muslim Malaysians religious affairs?
We don’t!
Now, tell me he sincerely don’t know the answer. Was he in deep meditation for the last decade? Islam is an intrusive religion. It intrudes into anything and everything. That’s the problem.
I hope those 200 to 1000 protesters (depending on who reported) are not the representing the muslims in the country. If 30,000 thousand Indians rallying does not represent 1.8 million people, I fail to see how 1000 people (we just take the bigger estimate) can represent about 15 million people. I hope there are more sensible people like former Suhakam commissioner Mehrun Siraj and others who agree that the protesters who storm the building is not the correct way.
Open discussion is the way to discuss the issues between Muslims and non-Muslims. Don’t insult Islam,” she (Mehrun Siraj) said amidst the shouts of the protesters.
In NST:
Meanwhile, Mehrun told reporters that the topic should be discussed in a nice way and the public should be allowed to express their views.
She also said that the NGO representatives’ action to interrupt and stop the discussion was uncalled for.
“What I feel need to be done is to explain to the people what Islam is all about. I think we can come to discuss instead of shouting. That is not the way.
“I am unhappy with it because it gives Islam a bad name,” she said.
Mehrun urged the government to amend Section 3 of the Law Reforms (Marriage and Divorce) Act 1976 to give opportunites to a converted spouse to annul his or her civil marriage at the Civil Court in cases where the other spouse opted not to convert.
Currently, she said, there were cases being brought up to the Civil Court between the converted spouse and his or her non-Muslim partner disputing which jurisdiction — the Syariah Court or the Civil Court — should adjudicate the dissolution of civil marriage and custody of children from their civil marriage.
“To me, the problem arises due to the lack of understanding among the non-Muslims and it is our duty to explain to them, but not by shouting or bullying,” she said.
She added that more such discussions should be held to give opportunities to Muslims to explain matters related to Islam to the non-Muslims.
She responded when one of the demonstrators, wearing a green and white Malay Student Front (GPMS) shirt, started the verbal melee
when he grabbed hold of a microphone and lashed out at the crowd of about 100 participants.
I represent Umno. Stop this forum” declared the unidentified individual who also uttered “Don’t insult Islam” and “You! Chinese, Indians, go to hell!”.
Interestingly, those who attended the forum were called “babi, pengkhianat and balik China” among others. So, is it a religious protest or plan to create racial problem. Susan provides an interesting view:
About going home to China…please-lah, there are more Muslim Chinese in China, than they are Malaysian Muslims in Malaysia, I think. I laugh to think of this archaic notion, which I hope, is only held by a small sector of the protestors.
Bar Council placed themselves on a higher pedestal:
Earlier, in officiating the forum, Ambiga had told participants that the protesters had a right to voice their views provided that the forum is allowed to continue. “Demonstrators are exercising their freedom of expression. We will certainly not lodge police reports
against them,” she said, adding that they were open to share their views within the forum as well.
It is very clearly explained by Bar Council on the objectives of the forum. Are those politicians so dumb until can’t understand the reasons? Why after 51 years still need to hide behind walls and cry our feeling out? Why we cannot tell our misery in public? Are we slaves? Is all those promises made during vote-currying purely lies? Why not reprimand your senior politicians? So far, only the temporary national coordinator of MIC Youth had come forward with a press statement. I’ll understand if people from Kuala Krai who perhaps are not able to understand English or follow the orders of their political masters makes police report, but what about the rest? Even PKR’s Kulim Bandar Bharu’s Zulkifli Nordin who said he was there representing Muslim Lawyers Association created big havoc. HINDRAF who is strong in Kulim area need to take note on this. Anyhow, Mahaguru58 blog states that Zulkifli havbe been warned and further action will be taken. Remind everyone to get rid of this guy in the next elections. So far DAP’s Tony Pua has made a statement. DAP’s Lim Kit Siang focuses on the police and Ministers’ response. And where is the rest of BN and PR? Hiding behind someone’s skirt?
I think Malaysians are clear about the forum. But those few people who are bent on causing problem don’t seem to see so.
Even the behavior of the protesters were different. Read below:
Although they appeared to have a uniform objective, the crowd appeared to have split into two entities – Umno-linked and opposition-linked – as the protest drew on.
Some 100 protesters led by Muslim Students Front (GPMS) – an Umno-linked organisation – were the first to arrive at the Bar Council headquarters in Kuala Lumpur, the venue of the forum, at about 8.30am.
According to a spokesperson, a total of 19 Muslim NGOs, including Indian Muslim Congress (Kimma), Muslim Consumer Association and Muslim welfare group Pekida, were part of this group.
At about 8.45am, another group of about 100 protesters led by PAS Youth chief Salahuddin Ayub marched to the venue unexpectedly.
Jarring chants ensued as both groups yelled two different series of slogans.
Choice of banner and poster mediums were also starkly contrasting. The GPMS-led group used full colour canvas banners, while the PAS-led group used small posters on photocopied paper.
Despite their differences, leaders from both groups took turns to address the crowd on a common loudhailer.
From the speeches, glaring differences in the two groups’ approach again came to the fore.
A GPMS leader who spoke repeatedly stoked the crowd into storming the Bar Council building if the forum does not end by 10am – the time given by the protesters to the forum organisers.
This was echoed by repeated calls of “rempuh (charge)” by the angry crowd.
Sensing the rise in tension however, PAS leaders who took over the loudhailer and repeatedly reminded the crowd to remain calm and sit on the road until the forum is cancelled.
Even the normally firebrand cleric Dr Badrul Amin Baharom tried to keep the crowd under control by setting a more relaxed tone for the demonstration
“If no one disturb the religions of others, we would leave peacefully. We don’t disturb the Christians, the Hindus and the Buddhists. We urge that they do not incite (unrest) among the rakyat with religious issues.
“I’m sure even the non-Muslims are not happy with religious issues being played up,” said Badrul Amin, who is also a PKR supreme council member.
PKR Kulim-Bandar Baharu MP Zulkifli Noordin however broke ranks with his opposition colleagues when he called on the crowd to storm the building should the forum continue.
“If you don’t hear from us at 10am, you should all storm the building,” he said, before he led a four-member delegation representing the protesters to state their position to the forum organisers.
Zulkifli had participated in the demonstration as a representative from the conservative Lawyers in Defence of Islam (Pembela) organisation.
At about 10am, a section of the crowd tried to break past the police barricade but were held back by riot police and PAS maroon-clad
volunteer corps better known as Unit Amal.Other than this, there was no untoward incidents reported. However, forum participants who later left the building were subjected to verbal abuses and obscenities from the crowd.
Forum organisers were then forced to release participants from the back entrance of the building.
At about 10.24am, Zulkifli emerged from the Bar Council building and declared that the objective of the protest had been met as the forum has been cancelled.
The crowd eventually dispersed at about 10.30am.
The enemy of Malaysians have been revealed. Are we having religious terrorists (not made up ones like HINDRAFs, but real terrorists) just like in other countries? People who use religion for their own interests? Muslim brothers and sisters – beware. Get rid of this cancer before it further degrades your faith in the eyes of others.
Worse still, the events today have revealed how the police and Home Minister work. These people are coming with thousand and excuses to cover their actions, which only reveals further how untrustworthy and discriminative things are now. The police can’t even protect a building, but willing to move heaven and earth to bash protesters at every other gathering! Would that qualify for Malaysian Book of Records?
When asked if it was fair to break up a function held in private premises, he (Asst Comm Zulkarnain) said: “We have to. It depends on the level of risk and if the threat is increasing, then we have maintain public order.”
The Home Minister instead said he will tread carefully before considering using ISA on the organisers!
It is up to each and everyone of us to protect the country OR to give up and move on to greener pastures. Sad to say, another of my friends is considering Australia today.
Meanwhile some of the testimonies made during the forum are below (taken from Malaysiakini):
Prior to the disruptions, the forum went ahead when three women brought on stage to share their experience with legal wrangling resulting from religious conversions.
One woman brought on stage, an ethnic Chinese, narrated how her father had met an Iranian woman before embracing Islam and marrying the woman without the family’s knowledge.
“Mother was devastated. She did not know what she did wrong… He was married to mum for 30 years. During the divorce process, he agreed to give mother our house.”
“One day, the hospital called and informed of his passing. It was during the divorce process… The authorities did not recognize my mother as his wife and me as his daughter. Our property was gone. Home didn’t belong to us.
“It is not fair. It is not justice,” said the woman in between sobs.
A German woman, known only as Anita, who shared her story later said that she had a civil marriage with a Malay Muslim man in England, who claimed to be an atheist at the time.
When the couple returned to Malaysia, Anita said she was ‘converted’ during a Muslim marriage, which eventually ended in divorce and she would have to remain a Muslim.
“Why does the family take it upon themselves to convert Western girls who come here? People should be able to choose. Why is it so rigid?
Relationship is supposed to be free,” she said.Another woman who shared her story to the participants was Marie Rayappan whose family was caught in a tussle over her deceased father – Anthony Rayappan’s – remains with the religious authorities.
The second session of the forum involved a panel discussion on the custody battle between R Subashini and her former husband T Saravanan@Muhammad Shafi Saravanan Abdullah.In 2006, Saravanan had converted to Islam, taking the name Muhammad Shafi, sought a divorce and applied for custody of the couple’s two children through the Syariah courts.
Subsequently, Subashini filed for an injunction against Muhammad Shafi’s action at the Syariah Court but was rejected at all levels up to the Federal Court.
The forum panel consisted of lawyers Haniff Khatri Abdulla, K Shanmuga and Ravi Nekoo and moderated by activist Zarizanana Abdul Aziz.
Two other panelists – Federal Territories Islamic Department (Jawi) Syariah prosecutor Dr Mohd Naim Mukhtar and Institute of Islamic Understanding (Ikim) representative Dr Wan Azha Wan Ahmad – pulled out of the event at the last minute.
Shanmuga argued that Muhammad Shafi should have sought a divorce at the civil court as their marriage was a civil marriage.
“In this case, because of the conversions, jumping spouses say that the new rule rules,” said Shanmuga, who is Subashini’s lawyer.
Haniff Khatri however argued that by virtue of embracing Islam, Muhammad Shafi had a right to seek recourse at the Syariah Court.
“He had the urge to convert at the age of 19. Syariah principles must be advanced as long as it doesn’t infringe the rights of the non Muslim. There are principle guidances in Islam,” said Haniff Khatri, who is Muhammad
Shafi’s lawyer.The last speaker Ravi concurred with Shanmuga and advised that all converts who embrace Islam finish their obligations at the civil courts before moving to the Syariah Courts.
“There cannot be two conflicting orders in one case,” he said.
we can argue about this all day,end of day what materialise really matter’s.yes,it seem’s unjust and unfair.when I write this comment,I am trying my best comment on my basics as an “neutral entity” not as a hindu.From,a Hindu’s prespectivce they would like to see their right’s not infringded,ensure they are not forced into conversion.It seem’s fair.yes,I strongly belive such forums should take place,but with the inclusion of all element’s in the equation.(including muslim scholars).
From muslim’s prespective forum held by non-muslims and without the inclusion of any islamic scholars seen as clear attack directed as islam.Maybe if,they have included anwar ibrahim,some PRO-PKR Islamic scholars it would not have this form of reaction.The govt,would be cautious act on islamic jurist..It’s my humble opinion,If we ever want to find solutions or to recommend change’s then we have work with those in power.End,of the day what was achieved,it led lot of people fuming,it was stopped,
moment’s later it started.I am sure,it’s not the end.
There will be some after-effect’s onPaktan Rakyat. PAS,would seriously evaulate it’s coaltion with PR.It seem’s for the first time,I have seen PAS,PKR,UMNO all joining hands in the protest.Indirectly,Bar council have given them the platform for them to unite.I belive the long term’s effects is indeed damaging.More further high-profile talk’s with PAS and UMNO (if,it ever happend they can easily make up around 73% of the seats in the parliment,with a sabah based bumiputra party they can take around 81% of the seats).The two thing’s which are lacking in our indian community.1)The clear sense of direction where we are heading to 2)we don’t have strong leader to unite us and chart us into the right direction,we are still going around in circles,not making any headway.
Last,but not the least in regard’s to the above comment’s they are more muslims in china than malaysia.It is indeed accurate,but you have failed to indicate the majority of muslim poulation in china are not han chinese (ethnic chinese) they are mostly uigurs(these people are not chinese).Just like tibetans,they are of different ethnic group.
Not only Hindus, but no one likes their rights infringed. The problem is when we use different parameters to decide if there is infringement. For the rest of Malaysians, we use one set of law. But for Muslims, there is another. So, obviously there is a clash because their religion is very invasive. It promotes preaching (same like Christianity). Thus it infringes on others rights.
I agree that more people can be called to the forum. But wait, isn’t that the responsibility of the government? Looking at the threats issued even people from IKIM and JAWI pulled out. Imagine if your boss hints that your rice bowl will be affected if go to the forum.
Actually, I think you are also making a mistake by saying its Islam-bashing. The focus is only analysing what can be learnt from the conversion problems. When the affected parties are called to share their comments, yeah they will emotional and blame the religion. That’s why the rest of the forumers consist of lawyers etc. So that can give their opinion – What can be done to improve the system. How to fine tune it.
in fact, the organising of this forum show the failure of government of handling this issue, until other parties have to come in. there have been many proposals given, among them have a non-muslim dept, have an inter-faith council, amend the law, etc. But as with all other proposals, its resigned to the dustbin or given lip service.
Anything suggested will be said as challenging Islam or the Malays or the monarchy instutions (or all 3). They simply use any excuse to silence the public. And always get confused between race and religion.
Thank’s for your reply,poobalan.I can see clearly from your perspective and I agree with you.However,I didn’t say it is islamic bashing,I was telling from muslim’s perspective and do note,I have added the “hindu” perspective too.As a Hindu,I can understand the auguish felt by our people.It take’s time to resolve this problems.I was merely saying that
confrontation is not the way forward.I understand the “corrupt” polticians care less about the rights of the minority’s.we need to have dialogue’s with Islamic scholars,I must say there are some who quite sympathic.The term “Inter-faith” is looked upon as,something that is intent to fuse different religions,rather than coventional dialogue by many muslims.It’s rather a perplex situation.
The rejection of proposals which u have mentioned,as Barisan national componet party’s didn’t really push it.It was merely a suggestion.If,they had push to certian extent,we would had been able to see some sucess,rember The PM had announced that in the future,those who convert,there is need to notify the families.Yes,it is long uphill task.If,the leader’s of our community,did work hard,they would receive some sucess if not today,,maybe later.
As,what you say,there was threat made to the indiviuals attending the forums,that is why those people from AKEM and JAWI didn’t came.so why is the need to held a forum which create’s so much friction?Despite,warnings from leaders of different party’s it went ahead and was called of within minutes it started.what was achieved? The bar council’s vice-president got famous,proably he will stand for next elections.PAS,hadi awang had said such forums can be held within close doors.It’s a postivtie sign.We would get more sucess without the need of embarssing or critising anybody.They must either get the support from ruling front or opposition front to aid them in their cause.Confronation is not right way forward.
i also think the confrontation is not good, but then its taking 50 years and nothing much changed. the blame is partly (or mostly) on the political that were supposed to represent each community’s interests. many of the changes to constitution were done in full knowledge of the parties. ok, so it has been just few years since this cases came up. but being such a sensitive issue, those responsible should have worked triple-time to solve the problem and not dilly-dally. this kind of problems are very serious, but its clear that not much attention was paid to solve it.
i think the forum is good thing because it brought forth the actual scenario in the country. we can see all the ugly things which were hidden under the carpet coming up. Now we know that unity, tolerance, equality, justice, is just a lip-service. perhaps its time to investigate the amount of money spent for all those campaigns.
who care’s? end of the day,you want to convert go ahead.we indians are only good for talking,but no action.we can’t even speak in one united voice,let alone achieve anything.
MP: edited.
there’s only one key question running in my head about the incident….. dun they perform prayers five times a week ? Shoudnt that make them a pure and matured person ?? wow……And for those (edited) who convert …. may you rotten in hell!
You see many of our people,convet not for the search of truth,it’s the economic and possibly polltical benefit.If you marry one of them,maybe who know’s in the future,your son or his son can one day become the PM (just like DR.M)..if you are indian,you will be lucky,if your son get a Job within the govt department.
reminds me of a guy who converted because his boss promised him promotion (govt dept). After conversion, the promised position was given to another person, citing various reasons. this guy was unlucky, i guess.
hahahaha…I bet now,he has problem converting back…serve’s him right for being too greedy.I know of guy from my old neigbourhood,he had this dream of setting up his own IT outsourcing company,each time
he want to apply for loan,there is some reason given by the bank officials.after,my marriage I moved to other part of msia,after space of 7 years,I met him in KL,he was on project assignment setting up Data-center’s for Govt projects.It seem’s he was doing very well.nothing seem to have changed much…expect his name.It’s now Nawaz Mohammaded Ghazani
in this case the convert is a selfish ! When he converts he has forgotten that his family will suffer after he died in terms of wealth distribution .
yes,he is selfish …after,all it’s his wealth.It’s his discreation to distribute to whoever he feel’s fit,unless of course,If it’s a ancestral property or the property had been jointly owned by his spouse.Even,in case of his off-spring’s,if he feel’s that they are not entitled to it,he might not include them in his will.As, divorce’s being a bitter affair,some of them tend not to include their ex-spouse and off-springs in their will.For example.If my dad,who is a hindu feel’s that I should not get any share of his hard-earned wealth,then it is his legitimate right to do so.The complication’s mainly arise,when the property is jointy-owned.
Didnt I say that nothing good will come out of this ? Bar Council is wrong and being idiotic in organizing such ill-advised forum. This is, in view of the Muslims, a provocation.
However, I do not condone that hooliganistic antics of the protestors. The Home Ministry should be seen as fair and impartial by acting against the leaders of the mob, especially the PKR and PAS MPs.
BTW PR apologists (VJ, Killi,etc),
Did you nothing Tian Chua’s statement that the PKR MP acted in personal capacity and as such no action will be taken ?
So much for multi-racial party….
perhaps it should be read together with Syed Hussin’s statement as well.
dear umno apologist Killer and…..errrrr (btw i cant find another apologist like you here ….why uh?) , is BN a multiracial party ? It’s members can we loud racial issues in Parliament and get away without a scratch . When comes to religion all of them are the same dungu regardless which party . Sorry if you agree yourself as dungu .