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Interview with Muthupalaniappan by Malaysiakini. It came in two parts (here and here), but I put them together.

What motivated you to contest?

MIC is one of the oldest political parties in our country, it was formed 50 years ago and built by the tireless effort and sacrifices of many people to safeguard the political rights of the Indians in this country.

And it has grown from strength to strength, from time to time. In the start, it was the only party for the Indians. But in the last 10 years, MIC has become very weak, very irrelevant and lost the support and confidence of the Indian community in Malaysia.

I believe for a political party, people’s support is its capital. By that measure, MIC now has virtually lost its respect and support. The people spoke this on March 8. As of today, an overwhelming majority has abandoned MIC. Something needs to be done before MIC goes into oblivion.

I believe people are not against MIC, people are fed up with the leadership of MIC from the top to the ground level. So, I strongly feel that MIC should be saved. MIC lost its respect because of its leaders. At one time, MIC was the only party that represented the Indians in the country.

Unfortunately, in the last 10 years, many MIC leaders have been expelled or suspended from the party… and hundreds of branches have been closed in order to make the branches defunct for political reasons.

As I told you, the people are not against MIC but only the leadership, and I thought I should stand for the position of president to bring some changes.

Don’t you see any hope in the current pool of MIC leaders?

At the moment, there is no change. I have been advocating not to expel members and close branches. Unfortunately, the leadership keeps doing so to protect their interests.

So I am saying there has to be very strong change, there must be urgent and extraordinary actions to strengthen and revitalise MIC… to my mind there must be a change for the better. Change for the better means, we should be united.

To my mind, unity is strength… instead of unifying all the people, we kept on expelling people. For example, how did IPF (the Indian Progressive Front) come about? Because MIC expelled (MG) Pandithan, he had no choice but to form his own party with his supporters.

Number two, he (Samy Vellu) expelled V Govindaraju, who was a dedicated leader, a close supporter of Samy Vellu… he expelled him. Again he (Govindaraju) had no choice, he had to form his own party. To my mind, in our country, where Indians are the minority, we should have the bargaining power. Bargaining power is the secret seed of strengthening the Indian community…

I had been advocating to Samy Vellu, he was a good friend also, to take in all (the expelled members). I spoke to Govindaraju, he was generous enough to dissolve his party to rejoin MIC. Then I spoke to Samy Vellu, I told him by Govindaraju joining MIC, it will strengthen your leadership and give a good impression to the other component parties in Barisan Nasional.

When he (Govindaraj) came into MIC, I mean everybody would have his own thinking, different schools of thought. He had a different school of thought which he (Samy Vellu) did not like, he expelled him again. So in the same manner, whichever branch doesn’t toe his line, he will just close the branche. I think easily, he would have closed more than 1,000 branches. In Negeri (Sembilan), they had closed many branches purely to kill me politically.

Kill you?

(Yes), politically. Then they just formed branches overnight. Just one or two nights before the elections and they come and vote, they have taken all the power… so too much of politicking is the cause of the loss in the last elections.

I must be fair, I am not trying to say Samy Vellu has not done anything, he has done something, no doubt about it. But he has not fulfilled his promises as to the expectations of the people. So since MIC did not deliver the goods as to the expectations of the people, they reacted (and) ultimately the result came on March 8.

Not only they did not vote (for MIC), the whole community throughout the country was campaigning against the MIC candidates, Barisan Nasional candidates, particularly the MIC candidates. So that is a lesson … I thought after this, they (MIC leaders) would change. To me, still the (same) things are going on. In Teluk Intan (Perak), whatever branches he has closed, these branches are very active branches, the leaders were liked by the Barisan leaders.

What about the re-branding exercise?

He (Samy Vellu) is saying re-branding. Re-branding means, he should change the attitude of the people. Why they did not support Barisan Nasional, in particular MIC? So you must change the attitude of the Indian community… not the uniform, the flag or the song.

Firstly, if he really wants to re-brand, he should take (back) all the expelled and suspended members into the party. He should reinstate all the closed branches, definitely you can do it overnight, then you will get the overwhelming support.

When you don’t have the support, when you don’t encourage them, all the (MIC grassroots) leaders say, ‘You know we do a lot of work, ultimately no responsibility is given to us, no rewards come to us, only his own cronies take everything, why should we work?’

When you form branches without membership for political reasons, nobody is there to vote for you in the elections. So in the last elections, not even (the grassroots) leaders came. In some constituencies, no leaders or members came to campaign and vote.

I always believe… we are very fortunate to have good leaders in all the (BN) component parties, in particular Malays being the major race. From my own experience, they are really kind people, they are prepared to help the Indian community.

They also believe that the Indians and the Malays are similar, social background, culturally we are same, and even in the languages, there is some connection. So they are prepared to help but MIC did not make use of the opportunities that were available, even during (Dr) Mahathir’s (Mohamad) time…

What about the accusation that the racist mindset of Malay leaders and civil servants is a reason for the problems faced by the Indians.

It is the responsibility of the leaders to see that the policies are implemented. You are the boss of a party, which is part of the government. It is the fault of the leader… It is not that the other (MIC) leaders don’t want to do it, but if they do it, the boss won’t like it … it would make them more popular…

I was elected as a national vice-president, defeating two of his candidates. I was not given any responsibility at all for the three years. I was completely avoided. The last time also I told him that ‘please in the interest of the Indian community and MIC, I should continue as the chairman of the state’, but he just pushed me out. So to my mind, the change should take place. I have got my manifesto, and I already told you that if you approach nicely and discuss with them, the Malay leadership will help you.

From my experience in the state government and contact with the federal ministers, everything can be done, provided you approach in the right way. So who is big, who is small, if you want to show your power, all are human beings.

Are you saying Samy Vellu’s approach was not nice?

Of course… he fights with everybody

So the problems faced by the Indian community are because of him?

It is the doing of Samy Vellu

How committed are you in mounting this challenge?

I decide, I act on it. I don’t want to be here (as president) for too long… either two terms or six years, and then you go and then another man takes over. When he comes in, he will try to prove that he is better than the others, and he would do something (different).

They also ask me if I am a proxy. I am not a proxy for anybody… as and unless, I am the head of the party I cannot implement (the changes).

So there is no room for a compromise?

No, there is no room for compromise. What I mean is, throughout the country, people have been talking to me, they encourage me to stand. If I withdraw at this time, that would mean I am an opportunist, that means I am not a man of my word. I want to maintain my integrity and dignity. I am not standing for my own personal benefit. As far as I am concerned, I have delivered my goods in Negeri Sembilan, everybody in Negeri Sembilan knows that I have done the best.

But there was this land issue in which you were implicated…

Thanks for reminding me, that was another political ploy to kill me.

Why would they want to kill you when you are doing a good job. You haven’t challenged him so far, so why?

This is my last resort (challenging Samy Vellu). He has pushed me to the wall. You see one of my biggest achievements in Negeri Sembilan… this land is Kampung Pasir land next to the Seremban General Hospital, very prime land, around 100 acres occupied by many Chinese and Indians.

My policy was whoever stays in that land as a squatter for more than five years or 10 years, that land should be (given) to the person occupying that land. I made that as a policy and it was accepted by the Negeri Sembilan government. So I was waiting for the right opportune moment, I used a lot of pressure, my influence and time to get the title deeds for them.

What happened was, there were two (MIC) branches there. That two leaders spent more than three years organising things, collecting ICs and filling up application forms. When the approval was given, the two corner lots happened to be given to the branch leaders in that area, about 500 square feet more than the rest. Is it wrong?

To my mind, a man who has slogged for the people, a man who has slogged for the party, no harm in giving. Instead of that, they alleged that for his friends, he (Muthupalaniappan) gave big lots, others small lots.

Both parties must be heard. They never discussed with me, it was all lies. They should have appreciated me for having got that land. I used a lot of tricks to get the title deeds (for the people). A lot of companies wanted to take up the land, but I said, ‘nothing doing’.

As far I was concerned, that land should be sold to the people. If you ask anybody in town, (they would tell you) that I gave the land for 40 sen per square foot, now its RM15 per square foot. Now roads have been laid, it is a beautiful land, in the heart of Seremban town.

Are you seeking revenge?

No, no…(I am standing against Samy Vellu) for the change. Because nobody else wants to stand.

In the event former deputy president S Subramaniam also contests for presidency, will you still contest as well?

That I will decide when I come to the bridge.

Do you think Subramaniam can become a better president

He won’t contest.

Is there any understanding between the two of you?

There is no understanding whatsoever… there is (talk) that I am a proxy for Subra. It is wrong to say that I am a proxy for Subra. If anybody says that I am a proxy for Samy Vellu, that may be true or correct because I have been with Samy Vellu for more than 20 years. To my mind, the downfall of Indians in Malaysia, has partly got to do with Subra also.

What about yourself?

Ohhhh! I have spoken my mind in the CWC (central working committee). As far as I am concerned, whatever I did in Negeri Sembilan, I did on my own will. I never took instructions from anybody. Even though I was asked to take instructions, I said ‘nothing doing, I am here, I am the leader, I should know better’. This goes to show that I am not standing against him as a matter of revenge. As far as I am concerned, I have served in the government, I have been in MIC for a long time, so I am the right person, I have all the qualifications.

Why didn’t you challenge him in the past to institute changes?

All the time, I stood for vice-president. The last time when I lost (in the contest for vice-presidency), I decided that in the next elections I will go for president or deputy president. For me, time is limited… the age factor is there. So, I genuinely want to contribute to the Indian community, to contribute, I can only do this by being the president of the party.

My ambition is, I must do something for the Indians as I have done in Negeri Sembilan. So far, I can say without any hesitation that I have done a lot. Practically, each and every Indian family in Negeri Sembilan has benefitted out of my leadership, directly or indirectly. So now, I want to extend my services throughout the country…

I am a very amicable character, and at the same time, firm also. And knowing the Malay leadership and everybody, they are all happy that I am standing against Samy Vellu, the whole Malay community is very happy. When I go down (to the ground), they say ‘Oh, Datuk, boleh jadi ah?, Boleh menang?… Mesti menang…’ What I am trying to say is that they know me well, many may not know me because I am not in the press all the time.

Even in Malaysiakini, one man wrote that he (Muthupalaniappan) is an unknown character. I may be unknown to him, if he had made a proper inquiry here (in Negeri Sembilan) and other states as to the popularity of Muthu, then he can say that I will be another Samy Vellu. But I won’t be another Samy Vellu, either I do it or I don’t do it, I will honourably give up the whole thing… it is not permanent, leaders come, leaders go. That’s my policy, I am not only saying this today, I was telling this 20 years ago.

Another issue is the Maika Holdings shares. For your information, the first meeting after forming Maika Holdings, after collecting RM100 million, the first meeting was held at a hotel in Kuala Lumpur. I told the meeting that all the poor Indians have high hopes on our MIC leadership, they have contributed so much of money. If MIC fails to fulfill the expectations of the contributors, next time you cannot go anywhere to collect money.

I understand their plight, they sold their cows, they sold their jewellery, they bought the shares to make money. Maika Holdings is not poor, it has got its assets. I appeal to the people not to sell the shares at par value.

It’s not fair, you buy it 30 years ago for RM100, if you had kept the money in the bank, fixed deposit, once in six years it doubles. In those days, RM100 was not small money. Now, I understand that some people are making use of this opportunity to buy the shares at the par value.

We want to increase equity participation, but if you keep on selling, where are you going to get your participation? It will be minus, it won’t be plus. So whatever we have, we should not sell… the bank, it was very unfortunate, the United Asian Bank. Before, we had four banks.

If the four licences had been kept, it would be billions of ringgit. The four banks were made into one, they took all the money at the par value… later I was told that, Tun (Mahathir) said in the cabinet that this bank is relatively an Indian bank, so the Indians must play a very important role in the bank.

At that time, what should have been done? Save the bank, go for a collection and you would have collected billions. All the rich fellows would have bought 50,000 and 100,000 shares. But it was sold. To whom it was sold? A big question mark, why it was sold, how it was sold? Then I told him (Samy Vellu) to go and talk to the Indian government… let this bank be the contribution of the Indian government to the Malaysian Indians. He went there … big hue and cry, publicity. He went there, came back, (the deal) did not materialise.

To my mind again, it is the weakness of the leadership. Banks are the backbone of the economy of a country or community … even Maika Holdings was successful because of the finance given by UAB. So we lost the bank, we lost everything, we only have one, that is Samy Vellu.

On Maika’s plan to sell its cash cow Overseas Capital Assurance Bhd?

(Laughs) That Capital Assurance is the only company that is making money… how can you sell that, it is profitable. If they sell it, what will happen?

On the plans to liquidate the company…

My opinion is that Maika Holdings should be left as it is. We should talk to the government to take over Maika Holdings… with prudent management and careful spending, you should be able to make it. This is not uncommon, the government should bailout Maika Holdings. It is the responsibility of the Barisan government.

If you were president, would you ask for this?

I would insist. They (the government) should. For example Citibank, and how many companies (have been bailed out by the government)… to make things worse, they (the government) are still giving out RM20 million, RM30 million. I think whenever the government gives the money to the (Indian) youths… it should also engage its own auditors to see that the money goes to the right people.

You must check whether the money is really utilised for the purpose it was given for. You want the social problems to be sorted out, you just give a big checque, further problems are there.

Are you confident about your chances?

You take it from me. I am getting the required nominations, and I am winning. It is written on the wall. I have already got 540 people (to nominate). When I go there, they say ‘Datuk, you don’t worry, we want to nominate you’… It is a good thing that I announced (my intention to contest) much earlier.

It seems many people did not want to pay the quota for this year, they did not want to carry on with the branches. They wanted to give up on MIC and join some other party. Once, I made the announcement, then they all decided to pay the money.

So as far as you are concerned, victory is in the bag.

Yes.

Why did you say (former MIC deputy president S ) Subramaniam will not contest.

I have spoken to him… he was blocking everybody, neither did he stand and others also cannot go. He has been there for too long, longest serving deputy president. I had a discussion with him… three to four months back.

And he told me very frankly, ‘You know Muthu, I don’t want to stand against Samy Vellu because I had a bad experience before’. He said even when he was a deputy minister, he couldn’t do anything, now he is nobody, not in any position. He said he got no political power and no money power.

I told him he was wrong, I don’t know whether he has no money power or not but as far as political power is concerned, he still has a good following throughout the country. (I told him) you better stand. I was thinking he would stand for president and others could go for deputy.

(Shifting his focus back to Samy Vellu)

…we are of the same star (horoscope) …what is surprising … I used to tell him also, ‘no Muthu, no Samy Vellu’. I am the only one during (former MIC president, the late S) Manikavasagam’s time who openly supported him.

I brought Penang to support him, I brought the Malacca people to support him and the Johor people to support him… he can never think of Negeri Sembilan but I managed… I am the one who made them support Samy Vellu. At that time Manikavasagam was fully supporting Subra and (the late N) Pathmanaban.

Speculation is rife that current vice-president S Sothinathan has been picked by the president as his successor. What is your view on this?

If you see my manifesto, I have stated that the (manner in which the) selection of (election) candidates for Barisan Nasional must change. This is also one of the reasons for the defeat of Barisan Nasional (in the March 8 polls). Coming back to Teluk Kemang (where incumbent Sothinathan was defeated)… Umno did not want him (Sothinathan)… most of the MIC branches did not like him… the report was clear, Sothi cannot win, field another candidate. The entire population wanted Datuk Muthu to stand there.

If I had stood there, we would not have lost Teluk Kemang, hundreds of letters were sent to Samy Vellu… to the prime minister… I don’t know whether they read the letters … when you field a candidate, you must field a candidate who commands the respect of the constituents and also the branch leaders and also the Barisan leaders… you don’t consult the division leaders and you just put your man there, what happens?… Man proposes, God disposes.

Do you see Sothinathan as being a chip of the old block or someone capable of bringing change?

No… I know him very well. (Politically), I call him a boy, that’s all… that is a position which requires calibre, patience… the last elections have shown that he is not the right person, he may not suit the presidential position. Of course Samy Vellu wants a person who can…

On the manner in which party elections are carried out.

For the president’s position, at the moment, all the division leaders will be returning officers of the (respective) divisions and state leaders will be the returning officers of the (respective) states.

I say all these people are appointed by the president so they are all interested parties. So what I say is, the MIC constitution says, the elections is by way of secret ballots. By balloting division by division, I don’t think there is any secrecy. Every division has got a few branches… they come and vote there… so the victimisation will take place. I say that balloting and counting should take place at the state level.

What about money politics?

The Election Commission must come up with guidelines… money politics is there in MIC… before the elections, candidates should stop giving nine-course dinners at expensive Chinese restaurants… MIC itself was doing it, the state leaders held fantastic dinners in fantastic restaurants. Is this not money politics? All this should be stopped.

If you become president…

Once I become president, I will change a lot of things for the better, real democracy will prevail and there will be transparency.

Will heads roll?

(Laughs) Now, there is nothing to roll…

Will MIC continue to remain relevant in this changing political landscape which is moving towards multi-racial parties?

In a multiracial party, the benefits and the power base will favour the majority, ultimately the Indians will be slowly wiped out on the argument that this is a democratic party and you are too few in number…we will become a ladder for others.

But even in Barisan Nasional, MIC appears to be a minority.

The last elections showed a change in the way the Indians think…

Yes, they have changed but things in MIC and Barisan remain the same.

Barisan leaders are recognising the fact that Indians should be given a fair share.

But when you have an Umno MP like Tajuddin Abdul Rahman calling Indian politicians ‘keling’, does that really display a shift in mindset?

He was wrong… This sort of things, Barisan must take action against those who are offending the others.

On Tamil schools.

This is a very sensitive issue, I would like to know whether they want to protect the Tamil schools, or protect the Tamil language. To my mind, Tamil schools are to stay, at the same time, all the sekolah menengah (secondary schools) should make Tamil and Chinese as compulsory second languages, meaning that if they (the students) do not get through, they would fail the whole exam.

Then they will be forced to learn Tamil… We then leave it to the people, whether they want to (send their children) to Tamil schools or sekolah menengah, where they also learn Tamil.

So you would prefer that eventually Tamil schools disappear from the scene?

That’s the feeling, but the Tamil language must be there.

Why do you want Tamil schools to be closed down?

I am not saying Tamil schools must be closed down.

Disappear?

No. Tamil schools are to stay, but at the same time we must protect the Tamil language as a pilot project to make it a compulsory second language.

So while the language is protected, the Tamil schools will disappear

Not necessarily. I will have a choice whether to send (my kids) to a Tamil school or sekolah menengah.

Isn’t that what (Umno Youth leader) Mukhriz (Mahathir) is saying?

He says close all the Tamil schools straightway…

MIC has said that it will not let this happen, will this be your stand as well?

I have said, Tamil schools are here to stay, and at the same time, all sekolah menengah must make Tamil a compulsory second language. I leave it at that.

What about the allocation for Tamil schools, there seems to be some discrimination. What would you do about this?

All should be treated equally.

Yes, but what would you do since MIC has not been able to do anything

It is the responsibility of the government…

One minister had said in the past that mother tongue education is the responsibility of the community.

He is wrong. The government is by the people and for the people. He must be reminded of that. That is the meaning of a government.

But they have not been doing this…

Then, they must do it.

Will you do it?

I will do it. Nothing to worry about.

So you will not bow down to pressure?

I will strive for the rightful share for the Indian community.

Can we actually absolve Umno from any responsibility for the problems faced by the Indian community, in terms of their hardline racial approach which has alienated the other races.

(Lengthy pause) Umno… has to fight for its members that it represents, the Malay community. At the same time, this is a multiracial country, in order to progress, the other races must also be looked after. If the other races are not peaceful, then the Malays also cannot enjoy the cake.

So in the same manner, if the Malays are not happy, we cannot enjoy the cake either. Again I say, it is the weakness of the leaders of the component parties. Had they been outspoken (then) as they are speaking now, things would have been different. Why are they only talking about it now? They took things for granted.

What are your opinions about Hindraf (Hindu Rights Action Force) and the Nov 25 gathering?

…that day the people had shown their dissatisfaction with the government and the component party leaders. They (the community) have been keeping it (the grouses) in their hearts for a very long time. That day, the volcano erupted. The people felt that they did not get anything, they felt left out. So once they felt left out… they had to gather.

So you agree that Hindraf’s stand was justified?

As far as I am concerned, they (the five Hindraf leaders held under the Internal Security Act) should be released. They are not enemies of the country, they are not a threat to the peace of the country. What they are saying is that certain rights which are lawfully due to the people were not fulfilled.

If you become president, do you believe you can lead MIC to regain lost ground in the next elections?

I can and I’ll tell you why. I am the right person. I was with Samy Vellu, I was with him for 20 years and all his friends are my friends. Most of his appointments were done through my recommendations also. Thereafter we felt apart on some issues… then Subra, I was the one who told Samy Vellu that he (Subramaniam) should not be expelled either… Samy Vellu’s faction are my friends, Subra’s faction are also my friends.

I think I can unite them. I am also a good friend of all the IPF and Hindraf people. They all know that I am very straightforward. With all these things and my experience in the government, I will be able to unite all the Indians. Once we are united, we will have the bargaining power and our demands will be met.

On the much talked about ‘Ketuanan Melayu’ (Malay supremacy).

To me, everyone is equal before the law. Everyone is a human being, they should not be too sentimental about this. We agreed to the Malay leadership, it may be relevant in Barisan Nasional but not in a multiracial party.

Since you announced your candidacy, has there been any threats…

He (Samy Vellu) won’t go to that extent against me. Because when he sleeps peacefully, he will think that it is because of Muthu he enjoyed 20 years of leadership and ministership.

I wrote him a letter (before and after the elections) telling him that I want to see him leave with dignity. I thought he would change…

Some people say that MIC is a volatile party and only a person like Samy Vellu can rule it with an iron fist.

(Citing a Tamil saying) You can do this with love as well.

THE END.

What are you views on the interview? I think he was a bit apprehensive when talking about Tamil schools. Other than that, its the usual stuff – hitting the incumbent, claiming can do better, clarifying a potential scandal, and confrontational views on fellow BN partners. BTW, he’s in hot soup now – being investigated by MIC discplinary committee for comments that possibly hurt the party and its leaders.

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