Posts Tagged ‘conversion’

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Cabinet to investigate Indira children conversion

April 17th, 2009
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If this lady is as tough as her namesake, its going to a be hell of a problem for the husband.  The story, as written published below, may not tell the whole picture, and to be fair, we have to wait till more details come out.

But while the case is going on, I wonder what happened to the initiative to streamline the conversion processes as proposed by PM Badawi last time. Then, MCA, ABIM, IKIM, and other groups were making noise of the illegal conversions issues that caused lot of unhappiness and distrust among the communities in the country. And some people wonder why certain community can be ungrateful or unappreciative or whatever.

This kind of problem won’t end without proper guidelines and perhaps a monitoring body for the non-Muslims to ensure their rights are actually protected, and not exist merely as words in the constitution. We had the Subashini case which still reverberates in our minds. Granted there were few cases where the conversion was reversed –  like the Chinese lady, Tan Eng Huan who married an Iranian (I think) out love, but never practised anything remotely close to Islam. A lady was buried as Buddhist after it was proven that she never did practise Islam, in Perlis. There was another case in Kota Bahru and one more in Malacca, if I’m not mistaken where the families of the convert got back their properties. Some may be deemed convert just because their MyKad said so! Or do anyone remember case of Elangesvaran?

The case of Indira Gandhi was first highlighted via a Hindu Sangam press statement as below, with specific mention of abuse:

PRESS STATEMENT :
APPEAL TO RAJA NAZRIN – DO WE NEED TO CONVERT BREASTFED 11 MONTH OLD BABY ?

At a time when we are welcoming “ONE MALAYSIA” concept we still have Ulamas who convert a 11 month old baby named Prasanna Thiksha to Ummu Abima bte Mohd Ridzuan. This baby was grabbed by a wife beating husband and both the husband Pathmanathan and the baby were converted in the state of Perak at Ipoh, Pasir Putih. The baby is still being breastfed.

A police report was made, but, as usual it does not “interfere” when it comes to one particular religion.

The mother a kindergarten teacher Indra Gandhi had to protect her other two children. The husband was able to snatch the Birth Certificates of the two Children and the wife now lives in fear because she is wondering whether the Birth Certificates can be used to convert the other two children.

Is this the “ONE MALAYSIA” vision we are going to encounter in the years to come? The Malaysia Hindu Sangam is most disturbed with this turn of events because the Judiciary in Malaysia has most often been “blind” to issues on Islam. We now have to channel our appeal to the Royalty because the head of the religion is the Ruler.

It is with good intentions that we appeal to the lovable Prince of Perak HRH Raja Nazrin ibni Sultan Raja Azlan Shah to intervene and solve this problem in a mutual humane way with harmony, peace and justice for all.

Thank you.

Datuk A. Vaithilingam
President
Malaysia Hindu Sangam

So, for now, just like Saravanan (the ex-husband of Subashini), this fellow is also looking like a coward who brings shame to the religion he claims to converted to. He had no guts to go through the divorce process and took the back door way.

THE MHS issued another press statement saying that the matter has been brought to the attention of the Cabinet:

Press Statement : Cabinet Intervenes On Complaints on Child Conversion

15 APRIL 2009

Early this month a father forcefully converted his eleven month old baby by grabbing the baby from the mother after assaulting her. This happened at Pasir Puteh, Ipoh. Last week the father Pathmanathan alias Mohd Ridzuan B Abdullah has obtained a Syariah court order to send the other two children whom he claimed to have converted to Islam by using their Birth Certificates to be sent to him.

After bringing this matter up to the Deputy Prime Minister Tan Sri Hj Muhiyuddin and Cabinet Ministers Tan Sri Koh Tsu Khoon and Datuk Dr.S.Subramaniam, this matter was brought to the cabinet meeting today and it was viewed with great concern.

Tan Sri Muhiyuddin informed me that 3 Minsters led by Tan Sri Koh Tsu Khoon, Major General Datuk Jamil Khir and Datuk Dr S.Subramaniam have been asked to immediately look into the matter.

Tan Sri Koh Tsu Khoon has requested the Malaysia Hindu Sangam and all others concerned to provide all the information so that a quick solution can be worked out. He also said that the Prime Minister has taken a serious view of this matter.

In the meantime Malaysia Hindu Sangam appeals to all concerned to be calm and assist in finding a just solution to this issue.

Datuk A.Vaithilingam.
President
Malaysia Hindu Sangam.

I hope the ministers concerned can indeed come out with some statement, instead of we have to rely on MHS. This will go a long way to reestablish some trust in the system. It will be good indeed if the DPM or PM mention something so that can reassure the families and community at large.

So, will Indira Gandhi plea be heard?

Her three young children were forcefully converted to Islam by her estranged husband. And M Indira Ghandi is taking her plight straight to the doorstep of Sri Perdana.

Calling on newly minted Prime Minister Najib Abdul Razak to explain the matter, the 35-year-old kindergarten teacher said: “He talks about an united Malaysia. But what does this mean when only the Muslims have rights.”

“I am not anti-Islam and I am not saying that they (Muslims) are doing wrong things but why do non-Muslims have to suffer like this?” she asked as tears welled up in her eyes.

Indira’s marriage is now is a limbo as her husband K Patmanathan, 40, had converted without her knowledge on March 11.

She claimed that her husband, who has since assumed the name Mohd Ridzuan Abdullah, had also converted their children, aged one to 12, on April 12 without their presence and using only their birth certificates.

“He took my baby (their youngest child) from me and ran away… I have not seen her ever since and I don’t know how she’s doing,” lamented Indira.

As for her marriage, the teacher, who also claimed to have been physically abused, said the couple were married for 16 years and had been facing problems for a long time. “It started so many years back that I can no longer keep track of when it started.”

“Recently he asked for a divorce and I thought to myself that since that was what he wanted I consented but he did not want to start the process and demanded that I do so.

“So I went to a marriage tribunal and filed for counselling in Ipoh but he never attended any of the counselling sessions,” she said. [so, there will be some records here]

Indira claimed that after one particular explosive argument, which also involved her mother and sisters, her husband had fled with their youngest daughter Prasana Diksa.

“When we went to the police station and lodged a report, no immediate action was taken by the police although my baby was still very young and needed to be breast-fed,” she said.

Since that incident, Indira has filed six police reports, with one alleging that she feared for her life because her husband had threatened her.

Indira said the police managed to locate her husband later but only to discover that he had converted the children.

The couple’s two other children Tevi Darsiny, 12 and Karan Dinesh, 11 are currently living with Indira, who has taken refuge with a relative fearing that Islamic officials would take the kids away.

“I was neither told nor asked about it (the conversion)… I don’t know what to do,” she lamented.

According to Indira, her husband had called her last Wednesday and promised to return her youngest child.

“He asked me to come to the Islamic Department (Jais) in Ipoh and take my baby because he could not care for her but he didn’t show up.

“Instead there was a man waiting there to serve me papers from the Syariah Court granting custody of my other children to him,” she said.

However, she refused to accept the papers as she believed that Syariah laws had no jurisdiction over her.

As for her husband’s conversion, Indira said he had spoken about his interest in Islam but she claimed this was related to monetary gains.

“I have no idea what his intentions are… but he mentioned once before that we will get RM5,000 each if we ‘nikah’ (marry according to Islamic rights) and money would also be given on a monthly basis to each of our children for education purposes.

“Over the past couple of days he keeps calling me and asks me to convert to Islam. He tells me that I should convert first and then we, as in the whole family, can opt out later back into Hinduism,” she said, adding that she wanted to remain a Hindu.

‘I love my wife very much’

Contacted later, her husband dismissed Indira’s allegations as absurd, saying he converted because he was passionate about Islam which he had discovered during his business trips.

Denying that he had physically abused her, Mohd Ridzuan said: “I don’t want to say anything but I love my wife very much… right now I only want her back.”

Asked why he had converted the children without informing his wife, he replied: “You see all the children must follow the father’s religion no matter whether he is a Hindu, Christian or Muslim.”

“This is not a political issues, this is my family matter and I don’t want to shame my wife,” said the businessman who has filed for custody of the children with the Syariah Court.

Meanwhile, Indira has sought the help of several legal adviders, non-Muslim organisations and the public.

“This is not only my case, many people are suffering because of this. We are filing for the custody of my children because they don’t want to go to their father, and they (the other party) are totally rejecting this.

“But the question is even if I can get back my children, will they be Hindu again? Why does it only take a day to convert my children but it is so difficult to return to their old religion?” she asked.

“Don’t I have say in it, when I was the one who carried them for nine months… aren’t they my children too? So what is my right and my children’s rights?

“The government say this is a country where it is free to practice your own religion but what is the right of a non-Muslim in this situation?” she added.

Well, in any case, Indira better make plan to migrate.

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Rare interview with Subashini

August 13th, 2008
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Malaysiakini published a telephone and face-to-face interview with R Subashini, the wife of the convert who also converted their eldest son and planned to convert the second son. She denies reports about her converting, saying that someone pretended to be her and called Malaysiakini via handphone and also sent email – both which belong to her!

Anyway, if she converts for the sake of the children, no one can stop it. Who wants to be separated from their kids? However, it will be a big insult for Islam for creating a situation that forces a mother to convert.

By the way, I’m curious that Saravanan still keeps his name which signifies Lord Muruga. Is it not heresy?

The rest of the interview below:

Following a widely-publicised and emotionally-charged legal battle which had stretched for two years, R Subashini has finally decided to break her silence albeit with a little mystery thrown into the concoction.

The Hindu wife of a Muslim convert spoke to Malaysiakini yesterday, her first interview with the media since going to court over her marriage and custody of her children.

For safety reasons, Subashini had kept a low profile despite her highly publicised case as issues pertaining to religion are considered controversial and sensitive in this country.

The courtroom drama started when her husband T Saravanan, a businessman, converted to Islam in May 2006 along with their eldest son, Dharvin Joshua, aged 5.

Saravanan, who assumed the name Muhammad Shafi Saravanan Abdullah, then launched proceedings in the Syariah Court for a divorce as well as custody of their second son, Sharvin, 3.

Subashini fought her case right up to the land’s highest court late last year.

Her case was however thrown out on technical grounds, despite having secured a minor victory in the landmark judgment.

Her meeting with Malaysiakini yesterday came amid mysterious phone calls and an email from a woman who had identified herself as ‘Subashini’.

But the ‘real’ Subashini denied making calls or sent out an email on the matter.

In a telephone conversation with Malaysiakini on Monday, the ‘other’ Subashini revealed that she had patched up with her husband and could now visit her eldest son on a regular basis.

She also stated that she intended to convert to Islam soon so that the family could be together once again, adding that she would instruct her lawyers to withdraw all of her court actions.

The telephone conversation was later followed by an email, furnishing more details.

In her email, the ‘other’ Subashini said she had been in contact with her husband five months ago and was “happy at the moment” that she could be with her two sons and her husband.

“Can anybody be in my shoes and describe how happy I am? Or at least tell me, can money or fame bring you happiness?

“I carried both my sons for nine months and how can I just let anyone take away my babies from me? They are the only priceless wealth that I have and will have forever.

“My prayers and support from everyone have showed me a result but it depends how some individuals accept this but as for me, I’m honest and clear with my decision.

“I have built back my palace and I wouldn’t want it to be demolished,” read the email.

However, when met at her lawyer K Shanmuga’s office in Kuala Lumpur yesterday, the ‘real’ Subashini denied that she had telephoned Malaysiakini or sent the email.

But there was another twist.

The ‘real’ Subashini confirmed that the phone number and email address used by the ‘other’ Subashini were indeed hers.

The phone number was a newly registered mobile number but she had stopped using the email account, which was registered under her second son’s name.

“This email was definitely not from me,” responded Subashini when shown a copy of the message.

Clad in a pink baju kurung (Malay traditional attire) and wearing a red pottu (Hindu marking) on her forehead, the 30-year-old company secretary was in the dark as to who would have impersonated her.

“I don’t have (Malaysiakini’s) number, I don’t know who to contact, I don’t have Malaysiakini’s email address.

“I don’t know who is using my name. I don’t know who (did it), I don’t want to point (fingers) at anyone,” she said.

At the brief meeting, Subashini – who declined to be photograped – also refused to speak on the record over the current status of her marriage and her children.

“Not at the moment,” she replied with a smile when asked about this.

Later, her lawyer Shanmuga (left) said he had not received any instruction from his client to withdraw the legal actions.

“The Shah Alam High Court is scheduled to hear (Subashini’s) application for leave to quash the conversion of (eldest son) Dharvin on Aug 21,” said the lawyer.

“The Attorney-General’s Chambers is objecting to the application, stating that the applicant has to go to a syariah court,” he added.

The matter would be heard before judicial commissioner Mariana Yahya.

To another question, the lawyer said he had not received any instruction from Subashini to file a fresh application for divorce in the civil court after a similar application was ruled “premature and invalid” by the Federal Court in its landmark ruling last year.

At the time, the court rejected Subashini’s divorce petition – which sought maintenance and custody of her children – on technical grounds over the date of her petition which was within three months of her husband’s conversion date.

According to the law, the petition should be filed three months after the conversion date but Subashini’s application was filed about two weeks before the three-month period expired. The divorce petition was thus deemed null and void.

Nevertheless, she could file a fresh petition to seek the divorce.

In the same judgment, Subashini secured a minor victory as the Federal Court ruled that the syariah courts cannot dissolve a civil marriage.

The highest court ruled, in a 2-1 decision, that Saravanan could seek remedies in the syariah courts but cannot compel Subashini to do the same because she was a non-Muslim.

However, the court did not make clear the issue concerning the custody of the children as it also ruled that both the husband and wife could initiate custody proceedings in their respective jurisdictions.

Other articles related to Subashini and conversion problem can be searched in this blog.

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Update of forum attack by thugs (3)

August 11th, 2008
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Samy Vellu gave his response on the forum fiasco. He agrees that the forum should be held indoors and in private:

“There should be a more sensible approach to settle the issue and it should not be debated in public.”Such issues should be discussed behind closed doors where Muslims and non-Muslims can raise their grievances. The public forum on Saturday did not benefit any party and angered certain groups.”

He also mentioned that the subject of conversion was discussed at the last BN supreme council meeting while he was a minister (that’s at least 6 months ago). Prime Minister gave assurance to find a solution that will not hurt both parties. Election time, so anything goes.

Thus, Samy Vellu earns the distinction for being the first (and only?) non-Muslim leader who disagrees with the public forum being organised. Well done.

Utusan meanwhile carried calls for ISA (from certain party members) to be imposed on the forum organisers. The reports sounded one-sided since only one group people gave their views.

More amazing is the revelation by Ahmad Zahid that a civil-syariah joint committee being established under Prime Minister’s Department. He said that discussions have been made with Minister Zaid Ibrahim. The committee will focus on divorce, child custody, wealth allocation, etc. Now, the discussion for such cases is to be done out of court between the civil lawyer and syariah lawyer. The discussion CANNOT be revealed in public to avoid misunderstanding and public debate.

Read part 1 and 2.

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Police side with forum protestors

August 9th, 2008
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I think it can’t get anymore clearer than this. Everywhere else, its the protesters who are bashed up, arrested, chased after and shot with tear gas/water cannon. I thought the same rule applies for all. But we have seen that people like Khairy get special treatment.

Today, the police asked the forum to end early instead of getting rid of the protestors. Now, I’m not telling the police to treat the protesters like how they treated the HINDRAF rally attendees. Let people protest, but in an orderly manner. If anyone turns phyiscal, arrest them. But it is very embarassing to read that police asked the forum to end early! Worse still, only yesterday this guys made a joke that they will “not hesitate to take action if anyone gathered at or near the Bar Council because of its forum on conversion to Islam”.

Dang Wangi OCPD Asst Comm Zulkarnain Abdul Rahman said police would be on full alert and advised people not to hold gatherings there. He said this was meant for those who were against the forum and those who supported it. But look what happened today. These people can afford to put bored-looking policemen to relax at roadblocks but can’t control a measly crowd of 300.

Both Malaysiakini and Star have the story.

Among the 300 protestors are members of Muslim welfare organsation Perkida and Islamic party PAS, who shouted, “Hancur Bar Council” (Crush Bar Council), “Hidup Islam” (Long Live Islam) and “Batal forum” (Cancel the forum). They carried placards saying “Jangan cabar Islam” (Don’t challenge Islam) and “Bar Council, Don’t play with fire”.

Among the protest leaders seen in the crowd are PAS Youth chief Salahuddin Ayub. The protesters, many of whom came just before the forum began, later decided to sit down in front of the Bar Council building and vowed that they would not budge until the event had been cancelled. Some threatened to storm the building to physically stop the forum.

Due to the advice from police, the program ended at 10am, about one hour after it started.

A leader of the protesters – PKR Kulim-Bandar Baharu parliamentarian Zulkifli Noordin – declared the abrupt end of the forum as a victory
for them. By 10.40am, most of the protesters have dispersed.

Most embarassing is PKR and PAS are in it. What is DAP’s stand on this? And do you realise that MIC, MCA, Gerakan and PPP cowards don’t even dare to open their mouths. COWARDS. COWARDS. COWARDS. Definition for political parties in Malaysia. All these people know that they can’t say a thing or they will be roasted. They will come up with the usual “we will talk about this in our own way” crap. But 51 years also no solution, what more can you talk about? You can’t be that stupid or have low IQ, can you? There’s no political will to solve this inter-religious contentions. That’s the problem.

Now imagine if we, the makkal, protest against the criminal, seditious teacher in Teluk Panglima Garang. You think the police will be so kind? They’ll chase the people away, not close down the school. I dread to think of the day when church sermons or temple prayers are asked to be stopped because some people protest at the noise, smell, or traffic jam.

No wonder more and more Malaysians are considering migrating. Recently two of my friends expressed their intentions.

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Bar Council defends forum

August 8th, 2008
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The report in Malaysiakini provides more explanation on the forum‘s objectives:

Although matters of faith and race are always sensitive and emotive, dialogues and discussions of the problems arising out of the Syariah and civil courts’ separate jurisdictions and issues “ancillary” to religious conversions are critical to their resolution, he (council vice-president K Ragunath) said.

Speaking at a press conference at the council’s office in Kuala Lumpur, Ragunath said such forums are also necessary given the government’s reluctance to address the issues constructively and by including all the relevant stakeholders increase the probability of arriving at “a just and amicable solution”.

“Concerns of some quarters, including a number of cabinet ministers such as Deputy Prime Minister Najib Abdul Razak, Home Minister Syed Hamid Albar, (minister in charge of Islamic affairs) Ahmad Zaid Hamidi and various NGOs and PAS are noted.

“We reiterate that our concern is to address the issues of conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and Syariah laws,” he added.

Such calls for the forum to be cancelled in view of the sensitivity of the topics expected to be raised therein – and claims that the forum will create “misunderstanding, anger and tension” – stand opposed to Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi’s plea for more interfaith dialogues among Malaysians to promote and ensure religious harmony, he added.

Ragunath reiterated that the forum will not be questioning Article 121 (1A) of the Federal Constitution which gives Syariah courts jurisdiction over Muslims, nor diminish Article 3 which explains Islam’s position.

“The forum is not about conversion per se, as the Bar Council endorses the right of individuals to embrace Islam. Instead, the forum will address the ancillary issues that arise from such situations and will emphasis the need for laws, and a judicial system that protects everyone equally.

“The way forward to resolving any dispute or issue is to firstly promote greater understanding of the views of all the parties involved. We accept and understand that matters relating to faith and race are always sensitive and emotive.

“However, regardless of the sensitivity, we must strive to move forward to achieve a just, fair and amicable solution to the problems faced by so many individuals. The stifling of debates, talks and discussions would be counter-productive and would only fuel hate, fear and insecurity within the affected communities,” he argued.

Describing Malaysian society as “mature and responsible,” Ragunath said “it wants to, and is ready to, exchange views in public, even difficult issues, in efforts to further strengthen national unity and foster interfaith harmony.”

“Discourse on issues confronting the nation cannot take place only at official levels, behind closed doors, but must be inclusive and involve the public and those whose lives are affected by them.

“Calls to halt discussions on any issue imply that there are aspects to those issues that the public does not have a right to know about, which is counter to the principles of the open, progressive and democratic society that we have evolved into.

“We believe that the continued suppression of open and respectful discourse, not public forums, that will cause tension and jeopardise national unity,” he added.

He also called for the government to do more by way of “constructive dialogue and meaningful debate.”

Explaining that the issue of separate legal jurisdictions is not unique to Malaysia, Ragunath stated whenever there are two conflicting or differing views (on a legal matter), “we need to dialogue (on it) and create awareness.”

On the part of the council, Ragunath said it was taking the necessary precautions to ensure the dialogue takes place in a “controlled and constructive measure” and invited all – supporters and critics alike – to attend the forum and to air their views.

Even those intent on demonstrating tomorrow against the forum or submitting to the council a memorandum expressing their grievances with it, are welcome to do so, said Ragunath.

“If they’re sending a memorandum, we’ll accept the memorandum. If they want to demonstrate, that is their right to demonstrate – as long as it is peaceful,” he said further.

Among the speakers at the forum are director of the Institute of Islamic Understanding’s Center for Syariah Laws and Political Science Dr Wan Azhar Wan Ahmad and Syariah lawyer Mohd Haniff Khatri Abdullah.

Mohd Haniff represented the Federal Territory’s Islamic Religious Council in the case of R Subashini. K Shanmuga and Ravi Nekoo, who were counsel for Subashini and S Shamala, respectively, are also slated to speak.

The moderator will be Zarizana Abdul Aziz of the Women’s Centre for Change (WCC).

Ragunath said the only person to have pulled out as a speaker is former Syariah judge and currently the Federal Territory Islamic Department’s Syariah prosecutor Dr Mohd Naim Mokhtar. About 150 people are expected to be at the forum.

At least the Bar Council is stating its reasons for organising the forum.  Its about the non-Muslims and how conversion of our loved ones affects us. Estimated crowd is about 150 only. If the media doesn’t write about it or broadcast it, more than half of Malaysians won’t even know about this forum. Now with all this publicity, the forum will attract more attention. Which is good. Bar Council organised a few forums and so far attempts to create problem by certain political party and its affiliated religious NGOs has failed. Hope this one goes on well too.

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