After interviews with the two challengers for deputy president post, Sothinathan and Dato Subra, Malaysiakini concludes the series with an interview with the incumbent, Palanivel:

Malaysiakini: Between the two contenders – S Subramaniam and S Sothinathan – for your post, who do you consider the bigger threat?

G Palanivel: I think the fight is between me and the former deputy president (Subramaniam).

What about Sothinathan (right)?

He is coming in like a spoiler.

Some say that Sothinathan’s entry into the race was orchestrated…

I don’t believe all these things.

Were you surprised that he chose to contest?

No, I am not surprised because he had expressed the desire to contest even during the last deputy presidential elections. He is quite an ambitious guy. So I am not surprised.

Some see it as an act of betrayal since he was a Samy Vellu loyalist.

I don’t want to comment on these things. It is not wrong to be ambitious.

Your detractors are accusing you of money politics. What do you have to say?

I don’t open my pocket and give out money. What I give (the delegates) are my brochures, books and (DVD) discs. If somebody gives on my behalf, somewhere, some money, it is not my fault.

Subramaniam has asked why you were defeated in your Hulu Selangor parliamentary constituency, when the president said you were the best man for the job.

True. True. But he forgot about his own defeat, just after becoming a young MP. He went into Parliament in 1974 and was defeated in 1978 at a very young age. First term, one term, and he got thrashed by V David. He doesn’t talk of that.

I lost (in the last general election) by only 198 votes in a (political) tsunami, in an election where people closely associated with him admitted that they were responsible for the defeat of party (MIC) candidates. They claimed responsibility in writing, I saw it.

He should (not) compare his defeat (to mine because) he contested at a time when Barisan Nasional was very strong. (At the time) you (could) put anybody also, you can win. (But) he lost to David by 3,000-over votes. And then we lost that seat (Damansara) forever, we never got that seat (back).

I was in my constituency for four terms. People know the political environment (when) we contested in (2008). We contested in a very hostile political environment.

Subramaniam has also described this as the battle for the presidency, since S Samy Vellu is campaigning on your behalf.

He wants to become president. That is his ambition. To become president (while) hiding in the post of the deputy president, hoping that one day something will happen to the president so that he can come and sit in the chair and start warming it, like the way he warmed it (as deputy president) for 25 years.

But he has said he did not want to contest the presidency for the sake of the party, in order not to weaken it further.

If that is so, he should not have challenged the president (in the past). Who was the cause of the disunity and fighting in the party? Not the president or me.

There is a perception that, without the president’s backing, you will not be able to pull this off…that you lack the support.

That is his (Subramaniam’s) opinion. I have my own strength. He knows it. On a one-to-one basis, I am still better off than him because I have served well in a short span of time. I have put my record (out) there. And in one of the press statements, I remember, he mentioned that if the deputy president candidate is supported by the president, it would be an advantage. So he was looking for that kind of support. I am so sorry, he never received it.

Subramaniam claims that he is the right man for the job because he has worked hard for the party and community.

That is okay-lah. Anybody can make that claim. Sothi also says he is the right man for the job. I have never said all those things. (laughs)

What are your comment on caste politics?

I can’t make any comment because I don’t belong to any of the dominant castes (in the party). I am (in) a minority. I am very insignificant in this, so I cannot make any comment.

Why? Because I have supported all the caste groups. Different sections of the Indian community support me, feeling that I am one of the most neutral guys, and I won’t domineer over them.

Do you believe this practice is rampant in the party?

I don’t think so. If you look at the way candidates are picked, (and) branches and divisions are structured from 1946 (up) to now, we are not a caste(-based) organisation. We are a political organisation.

Are your rivals exploiting this issue?

They are using it as a trump card to get (caste-based) votes.

But Subramaniam has completely denied using caste for political advancement and has even challenged the president to a debate to prove this.

I actually don’t read much of what Subramaniam says.

Sothinathan has stressed on the importance of youth to transform the party and suggested that both you and Subramaniam are past your prime.

He may be right but experience is a more important factor in politics. I have done many rounds in this party and have more experience than him. He is new. This was his first general election (in 2008), he was (previously) a by-election candidate.

Critics say that if you are elected and eventually become president, it will be nothing more than a continuation of Samy Vellu’s legacy.

No. Samy Vellu (right) has said many times that I move on my own. I always move on my own, I have my different style. I am a performer, I am a leader in my own right. I have shown leadership, I have proven it. I have my track record and I have got my footprints.

So you will chart your own course?

Yes. I will chart my own course. Of course continuity is important, you see. We can’t undo the achievements of the past by your predecessor. That won’t be my policy.

All three candidates are talking about change. This seems to be the central theme. How do you propose to change the party?

They are not giving any definition about their concept of change. They are just talking about change. Change means, they should have changed the president (laughs), they shouldn’t try to change the deputy president. I am just a small figure of this whole party, I am part of a team. I am a team leader.

I saw them all shouting about change. (If they wanted to change,) they should have changed the president. He (Subramaniam) never had the guts to do that. I have said that earlier.

When he said that I was a ‘shadow’ (of the president), I said ‘If I am a shadow, it’s okay-lah, shadows also can out-shadow people like him’. If I am a shadow, how is it that I can stand up on my own, speak on my own, think on my own, do things on my own.

I brought the government to the people all on my own, I didn’t consult the party president as far as my ministry work was concerned. As far as party work is concerned, of course, I am under a leader, I have to consult him, argue with him, and finally follow his directions.

Critics say that any form of change in MIC is not possible because the president’s presence is a stumbling block.

The president is not a stumbling block. The president has created enough change in this party. The person who follows up on his leadership will create more change according to the needs of the times.

Some disagree with the president coming up with a list of preferred candidates, as it creates an uneven playing field. Is this healthy for a political party which claims to be democratic?

There was one point in the political history of this party, when the president continuously supported Subramaniam (right). When ‘Jumbo’ Maniam (a MIC division leader) filed the nomination papers to challenge the post of deputy president, he (the president) was very unhappy with it, and he (the challenger) withdrew from the contest.

So in the past, before 2006, Subramaniam was always proposed… and the party president has seen to it that he is elected unopposed.

Why is it that, when he was supported by the president, he kept quiet? I am being supported by the president now, just like the way, the president supported him in the past. It is unfortunate that they (cannot) get along, (but) am I to be blamed for it?

Despite the president naming his line-up, there are an overwhelming number of contestants. Some say this is a sign that the president’s influence is waning and the members desire for change. Do you agree?

No, no. There were times when there were so many fellows contesting for the post of president, so many fellows contesting for the other posts. In the last elections, many contested for the posts in the CWC (central working committee) and (for) vice-president. It just shows that democracy is very vibrant in our party.

Is MIC still relevant?

MIC is relevant and will continue to be relevant because we are the only party that represents the Indians in this country. You can look at the way our political campaigns are carried out and the way (people) attend our campaigns, our elections and our nominations as well as our meetings… the party is largely intact. So it (the influence) is not waning at all. We can see more and more people interested in joining the party.

Like how Umno represents the Malays, MCA represents the Chinese, MIC will continue to represent the Indians because there are no other holistic party which can represent the Indians. And we are the only party with an archival memory, we have a long history. So at some points during our history, we have suffered, then we make a comeback.

Critics say that MIC leaders, from top to bottom, are more interested in serving themselves rather than the community.

MIC leaders have served the community well, but the general political environment (in the past) was not enabling (enough) for us to function. So that crippled most of our activities. So we need a very enabling political environment and now, the new government under the new prime minister, is creating this enabling environment for us. I think with this, we will be able to function better.

Why should delegates vote for you?

Well, I am not forcing the delegates to vote for me. I am just canvassing for votes, but I think they will vote for me because they like me. I can see this feeling of like and of love… they think that I am a reliable guy, that I am a guy with a lot of passion and commitment for my work, that I am accountable, that I am transparent and I report to them about what I do.

At all times in my political career, I have been reporting to them three times, four times a year and I have always maintained a (line of) communication with them. I used to send them birthday cards, greeting cards and SMS. I had a service centre in my constituency.

I (have been) a very consistent politician. Consistency is my hallmark. I am not a politician who, when I like it, I come in and when I don’t like it, I go out, (I don’t) as and when I like, come back and make a stake for the throne.

What about the controversy that surrounds Maika Holdings?

The Maika Holdings issue, we will resolve it. At the moment, we are unable to resolve it because of the injunction that has been put by Subramaniam… so there are some arguments going on between the parties involved in this. You notice one thing, all those who are holding their shares who are our party members, they are not making much noise.

If someone (a shareholder) is financially in trouble, and he wants back his shares, I think that is being taken care of to a large extent. But sometimes, you cannot pay everybody. So the moment the insurance company (can) be set up for sale and when there is a buyer, I think we can settle it.

But Subramaniam says the injunction was filed in the best interests of shareholders, and Maika did not look for the best buyer…

Then, he should have gone around looking for the best buyer. If he is unhappy with the buyer that the present people brought in, then he should have brought in a better buyer and offered a better offer, ‘hey you guys are only offering pennies, I am now offering you millions of ringgit’.

He should have brought (in) the buyer, (but) he didn’t. He only stopped the sale… why didn’t he bring a buyer? Why did he choose to go to the court?

After reading all three interviews, what’s your views? Who is most suitable among the three? Perhaps should have set up an open debate between them for the delegates to decide. Whatever it is, we are just observers and won’t make a difference in the party elections. Only the 1000 plus delegates have the power to make the “change”.

Yesterday was interview with Sothinathan. Today Malaysiakini publishes interview with ex MIC deputy president Dato S Subramaniam:

Malaysiakini: With just days to go before the elections, how do you rate your chances?

S Subramaniam: The chances are good. Delegates have assured me of their support. But I will continue to see them till the last day. This is the campaign period, it is a very important time. But it is reassuring.

Are you in a disadvantaged position, given the fact that you are going against two candidates who are seen as being the president’s men?

I don’t think that any of the two candidates are ‘Datuk Seri’s men’… that is not the problem at all. Because I have even fought the president. But what is important is that both the candidates and I are having a democratic process elections. We are campaigning in a democratic way… but of course the biggest campaigner in this elections is (S) Samy Vellu. He is the one who has come into the fray and started to campaign for (G) Palanivel against Subramaniam, against may be even (S) Sothinathan. That is the unusual thing in this.

I don’t see it as a problem (battling the duo) but my time is taken up to respond, reply and explain to the delegates these unfounded allegations that are being made by the president. As far as the candidates are concerned, they go around just like me, meeting delegates. But I have a very strong response from the delegates, because they are interested in seeing change, a change for the better in MIC.

Why should they vote for you?

I don’t want to brag… but I have the best experience among the three. I have been in the position of deputy presidency and I have contested many elections in the case of the deputy presidency. I was first elected in 1982 and every time there was a contest (since then) I have won, except in 2006. The previous occasions were different, contests were taking place for continued leadership.

But this time, the whole thing is different because Samy Vellu has announced that he would give up or retire after the deputy president is elected in 2009. This is a critical election. This is a critical time. The delegates have to see that they choose the right person, not only as deputy president but in the event he (Samy Vellu) steps down to take over the leadership of the party.

The president said he will step down in 2012 only if Palanivel wins. Does that mean if you or Sothinathan are elected, he will stay on?

That is what it is supposed to be (meant). But it is wrong. Because if you give your word publicly, it is supposed to be carried out regardless of who gets elected. It cannot be based on the fact that ‘I am campaigning for so and so, (therefore) so and so must be elected’. It is wrong. But the most important thing is, he has said many things over many times. First, he said he will retire after the deputy president is elected in September. That is in print and carried by all the media. I think that was his intention.

Then he said he wants to train the deputy president for one year… that is also in public records. Then the next time, he said he will go away in 2012, and the last time he said, he will go away only in 2015. All that is not important. He has said on the day he was elected (in March) that he will retire after the deputy presidency is filled. I hope as a leader, he will keep his word.

Is Sothinathan’s entry into the race a ploy to break your votes?

Many people have told me that. Many people have asked me that. I really don’t know what is going on between Samy Vellu, Sothinathan and Palanivel.

As you know, their relationship has been strong… so I really don’t know. But all that I know is that it started off that way, Sothinathan campaigned saying that Samy Vellu is a father figure and later he said ‘No, he (Samy Vellu, left) should move’ (step down) and that he (Sothinathan) wants to change things.

Then Samy Vellu did not campaign against Sothinathan in the first instance, it was only against me. But now it is against both of us. So I really don’t know what is going on. That clarification has to come from them. As I see, my votes cannot be split. It will be a solid vote. Sothi cannot split my votes.

It is being said that Sothinathan and you are targeting the same caste votes (by virtue of being Gounders)…

In all the years that I have been in politics, I have never used any caste-based organisation for my success. Never used. I know there are caste organisations which are social in nature. I have never ever used them for political purposes. Anybody can ask any of the caste-based organisation in the country if they wish to. (I) never ever used them. My interaction with them, my networking with them is through the party, my party has been the base. Through MIC, I network with all people…

I have known all these people through the party and party activities. But if it happens that these people who are supporting me also happen to come from different social organisations, it doesn’t matter. So there is no way Sothinathan is going to break my support because it is based on my personal relationship with all these people and my contribution towards them through the party. So there is no way anyone can succeed in breaking it (the votes). They tried in all the previous elections.

Of late, it has become a trend when somebody wants to go for elections, especially it started in 2006, they will quickly go and see the leadership of some social organisations. I won’t say it is caste-based organisations, I call these social organisations… and they (aspiring candidates) will go and see them and coax some leaders (of the organisations) to see if they can give them support. But the grassroots will not break up, no matter who asks, they will support me.

Is this practice of caste politics healthy for MIC and the Indian community?

As I said, I term them social organisations because their objectives are social. If it is not social but political, I think the Registrar of Societies and the government must do something about it. They are registered as social organisations for social purposes, educational, family development and so on. But if it is for politics based on caste, then the government should do away with such things, it is a retrogressive and not progressive concept.

But I believe that these are social organisations, my conviction is that I have never used these organisations for my political advancement. You can talk to any of the leaders, I mean I don’t know all (of them), but I know these people and I interact with them through the party.

You have been accused of practising caste politics, even by the president.

I will dare him to say this in the debate he challenged (me to) and (which) I accepted. Fix it quickly. Because I have never dealt with any social organisations for my political success. He is probably the user (of caste politics). I am not sure.

He probably is the user and that’s why he thinks others are doing it. I dare him and I will debate with him. I think he should have whichever organisation he is talking about to be present there (at the debate).

So you are keen on having this debate with him.

Yes. If there are continued unfounded allegations based on hearsay, no basis… I want to clear some of these things with him, I am prepared for it any time, in fact, I am waiting for the date.

Initially, there was talk that a deal was struck between the two of you, the president would remain neutral. Was this related to Nesa Cooperative’s injunction which prevents Maika Holdings from selling its insurance firm?

I would like to explain this very clearly. There was no deal (between us). When I saw the party face a disastrous defeat in the general election in 2008, there was a case of hopelessness for the members and the party. I decided not to do anything to further erode the strength of the party.

On the contrary, I extended my hand in friendship though I was denied my rights so many times, I still extended my hand in friendship to Samy Vellu and told him that I am prepared to help rebuild, rejuvenate and re-brand the party, give it a new image, direction and focus… he volunteered to appoint me to the central working committee which I politely refused… that was the only deal we had, there was no personal deal. And he said he was thinking of retiring… no more general elections for him, that he told this very clearly to the prime minister in my presence.

Therefore there was an indication that he will not contest in the general election, and therefore he may not even contest even in the (MIC) presidential election. Later, I came to know that he was going to contest the president’s position. Many urged me to contest, but I said no because the party was weak and I did not want to cause any problems in terms of the strength of the party. And after being elected, he said that he will retire once the deputy president is elected. So there was no need for a contest. But if he did not contest, I would have contested for the presidency.

There was no other deal struck. But he went back on everything that he (said). None of the responsibilities were given to me. I asked for about 10,000 membership forms, not one form was given to me. The re-branding he did it himself along with Sothinathan (right)… so I did not know what was going on, and I had no role to play, (there was) no rejuvenation, no new concept, so I just left it. That was what happened.

The Maika controversy, let me clearly say that this was the third time they asked for a resolution to sell the insurance company. Previously, two times also they got the resolution. They never sold the company. It is only a gimmick they do (at) every (Maika) AGM just to convince people that they are going to sell the insurance company and pay back (the shareholders). I did not stop the first time or the second time when they passed the resolution.

The third time, I wanted them to be serious. Sell it. I wrote a letter… (which states) Nesa Cooperative fully supports the sale. I said if you want to sell it, do a valuation of the company… if possible, sell it to an Indian individual, entity, company or cooperative after the evaluation. If there are no Indians, then sell it to any Malaysian company or even (to a buyer) outside Malaysia. The court thought these were legitimate grounds.

Now if they want to sell, it appears they don’t want to sell, (for) they have not taken any measures apart from I took (to ensure the sale).

What I did was during the time when there was some apparent peace between me and Samy Vellu, with the cooperation of (Maika Holdings CEO and Samy Vellu’s son) Vel Paari (right), we met up with a company and discussed the sale… and they offered in writing to purchase the insurance company for RM149 million, RM20 million more than the price (Maika) had wanted to sell (earlier).

Without a whisper to me, within 24 hours, they decided to reject the offer (of RM149 million). God alone knows what was the basis. And it so happens that it was an Indian company (which made the offer). If they were serious, with the RM149 million offer, if they went to the court, the court would have thought this is the right thing and lifted the injunction.

So you never used the injunction as a political bargaining chip?

Definitely not. Why should it be? Because I have put it in writing, I have represented to the court, the documents are there, these (the conditions stipulated) are what I want …so you can see from the facts, it has never been used for politics. Because elections were coming, they were trying to use it against me… I am telling the members that if there is no injunction, they can sell it to anybody, at any price, there is nothing we can do about it. With the injunction, there is some protection.

There have been no efforts to sell the insurance company, if there has been any effort, nobody knows it, I don’t know it, they have not made it public. What is the secret? Now the situation is, foreign companies can also buy local insurance companies so they should take advantage of it.

Why is the president so opposed to the idea of you becoming No. 2 and taking over? What is the reason for this bitter feud?

There is no bitter feud. If I become the deputy, he has to accept it. You have to ask him this question. I can only forecast, I can only make guesses.

Obviously, it appears that he wants to continue in the leadership. When he talks about (stepping down in) 2012 and 2015, he thinks that he wants to be in the chair longer than what he had promised or publicly stated. That is the only reason, there cannot be any other reason.

Do you regret not taking him on for the presidency in March?

Yes, sometimes. Because now he is behaving like a candidate (for No. 2). I wish I had contested against him and had the opportunity to tell where he had not performed and where he went wrong.

But I am not doing all that (now), I am only answering his unfounded allegations . He is not a candidate, he is trying to be one. He is campaigning against me… I wish sometimes I had (challenged him).

Some feel that you did not take him on because of fear…

No. It was not fear. I made it (the decision not to contest) in the interest of the party. Even when I was dropped twice from (MIC’s list of candidates for) the general election though I was deputy president, I accepted that sadly. The decision was unjustifiable, but I accepted in the interest of the party and said ‘support Barisan (Nasional), leave me alone, the injustices that have happened to me, leave it with me’. That’s the position I took.

I have always placed the party’s interests above everything else. So you have to ask him (why he is not quitting), probably he thinks 30 years (as president) is not enough… he continues to claim that his services are required… some say he wants to put his son (Vel Paari) in a proper place (in the party before retiring). These are things I can only guess.

There are those who say MIC members are fatigued by this protracted battle between the two of you. Will this lead to a decline in support for you and to the delegates opting for a younger leader?

I think the delegates have the right to decide who is the better man. They have to use their overall judgment. They have to see who has the capacity to unite the party and make it better, who has the ability to unite the community, which is split into so many factions. Even politically, never before have there been so many parties claiming to represent the Indians. When I joined politics there was only one party claiming to represent the Indians.

So this is not a feud. I never started a feud. I have always placed party interests above everything else. That’s why I did not contest the presidency…I mean if a right-thinking president thinks the feud should end, then no matter who is elected, he should act graciously.

But I think the delegates can make a wise choice. They know who the candidates are. I am not using anybody to campaign for me and neither is Sothinathan, but of course the incumbent president is using Samy Vellu.

There is no feud, as far as I am concerned, I am not starting a feud. You can see that. But of course the president is trying hard to draw me into a war of words and all sorts of controversies. But I am prepared to face him anytime, anywhere.

There is a perception that you and the president have spent your entire political careers battling one another while neglecting the community…

That perception is wrong. I have not contested the presidency more than once. There is only been one contest for the presidency, even that, it was based on principles. There were mass suspension of branches, about 300 branches were closed. There were about 60,000 members thrown out of the party. I had requested for a reinstatement, otherwise as a matter of principle, I would contest.

Always after a party elections, I have forgotten the differences… 2006 was a classic example, I said ‘I have lost the elections, I accept it, I will continue my service through my division and that’s it’. Then people who have won, have the responsibility towards the community…

The Maika Holdings is one (issue), it was a plan that we set up 25 years ago jointly in the interest of the community. There was no feud at that time. I raised several tens of millions (of ringgit), everybody put in their full effort and we worked hard and the shares were sold for RM106 million at a time when the economy was not strong.

How did it happen? Not with one person, it was a united, joint effort. But after the company was set up, year in, year out, the operations were not profitable, the shareholders did not get any reward… I had no role in Maika Holdings after I helped in its establishment. It was the management. So to say the community was neglected is not true. What the leadership should do, those in leadership positions must ensure that after the elections, everybody gets united and party programmes carry on. Elections take place once in three years.

The late K Pathmanabhan and I wrote the paper on (how to set up and) run MIED as an organisation. It started well and so on. With MIED, there are very little complaints, except for all the allegations that funds are being siphoned off, etcetera, contracts being given, there are lots of complaints… I have nothing to do with it, I am not in the management. Even when I was in MIED’s management, nearly for about 10 years, the accounts were not given…

I am fully committed to helping the community. There are some people who think that their entire life is for politicking. Not me. There are times when there are contests, and there are times (when) you have to work for the community.

Do you believe that the president’s continued presence is detrimental to the party?

Maybe not in the initial 10 years or 15 years. But thereafter, there has been a series of problems. Definitely it has a negative impact on the party, especially when the 300 branches were closed and 60,000 members made party-less. And there have been other actions from time to time. And then there is the failure of projects like Maika Holdings… it has not helped at all in the equity position of Malaysian Indians. So everything that failed during his time definitely have a negative impact on the party, its performance, perception and support.

There is also the concern that should you win the deputy presidency, MIC will be further fragmented and suffer a similar fate to that of MCA.

My opponents, those who are campaigning against me will like to say that. Definitely not necessary. In every party, when there is a leadership change, after the change, everything has gone on well in most parties. In MCA, the takeover (new leadership) is after a very dismal performance in the general election. So there are some other problems there. But I am not a member of the government, I am not a member of Parliament. I am a party worker for so many years, I should be given an opportunity to test what I can do.

The groundswell is very strong for a change, I don’t believe there will be divisions. I can work with everybody who is in the party. Everybody will have a role in the party. There is no need for divisions after that. But the important thing is, MIC leaders alone do not form the community, the community is much bigger than that. If we reach out to the grassroots of the community, we will be strong.

I don’t (carry) any baggage. I have never amassed any wealth. I have nothing to worry about. The community knows all this. They know me, my nature, my character, my background and my transparency. And they also know how I can successfully lead and manage. Nesa Cooperative is an example (of this).

Do you believe the president will be gracious enough to accept your victory, or will he employ other means to oust you?

Please ask him that question. It is not the president’s wish to accept or not accept. It is the delegates who decide and it is the (party) constitution that is binding on everybody.

But do you foresee problems?

I can surmount any problems.

Despite the president naming his line-up, there is an overwhelming number of candidates vying for the positions. Is this open defiance of the president, and an exhibition of the desire for change?

Yes possible. I think so. I think contest is healthy, there is no harm. Everybody should be able to accept success and defeat, starting from the top to the bottom… and thereafter unite in the interest of the party. In the case of the president, of course it is a defiance. Ideally, he would like to have everybody settled on the terms that he has proposed.

You cannot have a president’s team. His election is over as president. The present election is deputy president, vice president and CWC members. Let them campaign. Let them convince members that they are capable of that position. Let them do the talking. Whoever wins, accept that.

Is the battle in MIC a fight for the throne when the kingdom is on fire? Is MIC still relevant?

MIC is relevant. It all depends on how the party is led, how the party can fire the imagination of its members that we can progress. Nobody can say that the MIC has played no role for the Indian community. MIC has played an important role, not only in the politics of this country, but in the upliftment of the Indian community and resolving their problems… but that does not mean there are no problems. MIC is relevant, but how it is led, with what kind of focus.

Have we resolved the problems of the Indians in a substantial manner? As a minority community, we cannot resolve many problems on our own, we require the strong intervention and support of the government… in some areas the government have been very responsive… but there has been no effective or positive result in the case of improvement of the Indian equity in the country… that’s something the government can help… which under the 1Malaysia concept, the prime minister is attempting to do.

But still the Indian community is reluctant to have confidence, because they want to see results first. So this is a tough challenge for everybody. But if this is done, continually and systematically, and if the Indian confidence is won, then we will be a relevant party, a renewed, relevant party. But this will take time.

Would you agree to the suggestion by some observers that any reform of the party or regaining of lost ground can only happen if the president steps down?

I would agree to a large extent.

So in your opinion he has to step down for changes to take place?

I hope he has the heart to do it. That is the reality on the ground.

Your contenders are also talking about change. What kind of changes do you want to bring about?

When I talk about change, it is to change for the better. Change alone is not good enough because you can change for the worse. So if they elect me, I am saying it will be change for the better. I will liberalise the party further. I will (provide) greater freedom for members to express their views whether I agree or disagree, I will hear them.

Basically, the change must be where party members are given new hope, aspirations and direction. The party must be a united and strong party, where members will have greater confidence that the future will be better. How will I do that? I say there is a place for everybody in MIC… we need everybody…unite the party for one objective to serve the Indians better…

I believe that I have the confidence of the community, no matter how they are split, I am confident they will believe and trust me to come together. Not in the case of the other candidates, especially if they are aligned with the president.

Some feel that MIC leaders, including yourself, are only interested in serving themselves and not the community.

This is a wild allegation or wrong perception… I did not come into politics to look after my interests. I was offered a (lecturer’s post) in Universiti Malaya. If I had taken that, I would have been a professor or head of department for certain. But I declined that offer because (former MIC president V) Manikavasagam wanted me to be full-time politician and insisted that I contest in a constituency where I would surely lose. That was the Damansara constituency which was never won by the ruling party. But when I contested in 1974, I won by an accident.

So it was never a question of looking after my personal interests. So what have I looked after? Anybody can check, in what way I have used my positions for my personal benefit. There is none. Here is a question of serving the people, I have done my best. But in the final analysis, it is the leader who charts the course. It is the leader, it is not only in MIC but also in Umno. You can see the difference when one is the deputy president and when one becomes the president. When one becomes the president, he has the freedom to chart a new course, policies may remain, but a new course…

(Former premier) Dr Mahathir (Mohamad, left) is a classic example. His predecessor was Hussein Onn who was a very good prime minister known for his righteousness, Mahathir was his deputy, hardly known for anything outside Malaysia. But when he took over… he was known worldwide and held in high esteem… so being a deputy is different from being a president… I have for example said that the first thing I would do if I become the leader of the party is to reduce the term of the president for three terms or nine years…

In your opinion, is the contest for No. 2 really a contest for the No. 1 post by extension?

Yes, in a long way… because the president is getting involved so deeply, so it must be seen as almost a contest for the presidency. It has to be accepted. Yes, he is deeply involved. It is his team, endorsed team, official team. What does it mean? So it is a contest like that.

With allegations of money politics being rampant, some have even accused you of being involved…

Against me? I have not heard any accusations against me… I don’t have the evidence. I hear that some money is being handed over… until 2006 elections, there was no money politics. Yes, 2006, money was handed over to delegates… I did not know until after the elections. But this year, I hear it earlier, but I don’t have the evidence…

What about allegations of delegates being threatened?

Of course, delegates being questioned – ‘Why did you go?’ ‘What is the reason?’ ‘Why your division met so and so’… there are people who also said, ‘Please, I will vote for you but I think we should not meet. If we meet, they will call me, harass me… speaking to me on the phone is enough’. So I tell them this is undemocratic…

In an exclusive interview with Malaysiakini, deputy presidential hopeful S Sothinathan defends himself against accusations of caste and money politics.

What happened between you and MIC president S Samy Vellu?

Actually there is no friction between us. What happened is that I understand the present change in the political scenario in the country after the March 8 elections. I think there is a need for a young and vibrant leadership in MIC. I think we need to embrace this change if we want to remain relevant to the community. On that basis, I told him (Samy Vellu) that I wanted to go for deputy presidency… and there was total agreement all this while. But in May, I didn’t know there was a change in (his) mind… they wanted to remain neutral and remain as what they were (maintain status quo for deputy presidency)… which I feel would not help us anymore.

So I stood firm in my decision to go for number two… because a much more dynamic leadership has to be established for MIC to remain relevant. On that basis, I stood by what I felt was right. I think that is the correct thing to do at this moment. Because of that, they might not be very happy with my decision. But I am not really interested in that. Because I am more interested in staying relevant to the community, the party must be relevant, the leadership must be relevant. If that change cannot be brought about, I don’t know where we are heading towards.

For a long time, it was said that you would be the appointed successor and the president was giving the same impression. Now that the situation has changed, do you feel betrayed?

I don’t feel betrayed because in politics you must be brave enough to face anything. In politics, if you are fearful or very dependent on something, you will never succeed and you can never lead a community. We are talking about leading a community. When you are leading a community, when something unfavourable comes, you must accept it. It does not mean you must be dejected, you must move ahead with bravery and determination. In my case, I am not dejected because I take this as a greater challenge, and if I make it in this challenge, this is what is going to give me the real strength in politics.

You have always been seen as Samy Vellu’s man. Do you believe you can stand on your own feet?

I am very determined and I feel very strongly about it. As I told you earlier, this is what is going to decide the future. If I can get the mandate, this is what will give me the real strength to lead the community and the party in future.

On the president’s recent attack against you, that you are nothing without him, and that you speak with a forked tongue.

I don’t practice this kind of politics. It has never been my style of leadership at all. Because I just speak what I feel is right. I don’t speak one thing here and another thing there. That is not my way of campaigning. All the delegates (that) I have met will vouch for this. I have been very open to say what is my reason (for contesting)… it is purely to say what I can do for the party if they elect me. I don’t smear anybody’s campaign.

Why is he doing this then? His attacks have always been towards S Subramaniam, now suddenly he is focusing on you.

Only he will know why he is doing that. I remain focused on what I am doing because I am not going to be disturbed or distracted by what others are doing.

Do you feel hurt by his attacks?

In politics, you got to face all these things. You can’t be too sentimental about it. You have got to be practical about things.

How are your proposed reforms different from that of your rivals? Even Samy Vellu is talking about change.

My question is very simple. They have all been there in this position. What change have they brought? I am asking them (the delegates) to give me a chance (to change things). When you talk about change, for 25 years they have been there as deputies, they couldn’t bring this change. Give me the opportunity to bring about the change. When someone who has been there for such a long time, I mean at this particular stage in life, to talk about change, I really don’t understand what (that) change is all about.

Change means, change for the better. If there is a transition, if someone comes to take up the leadership, they should have the age with them. Not someone who is about to retire, comes into politics, and says ‘I want to lead this community’. A man’s most productive period is in the range of 45 to 60… and that is what I say, let us believe in that. Let us believe in a man’s productive period… and not those who have gone past those times, and come back to say ‘I want to bring about change’. You must have the physical strength and mental strength to lead a community, not just the wish to do it, but also the stamina.

So you are saying that your rivals have ‘missed the boat’ to bring about change

See… Samy Vellu became president of MIC at the age of 44. You can see the kind of changes that he brought into the party. The kind of enthusiasm…it was really great. Look at (Barack) Obama at the age of 47. I mean for being a black, everyone thought he would not do well but he is doing a fantastic job. Because they have the courage and determination and also the physical and mental strength to carry out what they feel, to carry out their vision. This is what is necessary.

How do you rate your chances, going against two heavyweights?

We are talking about a new leadership. To remain relevant, the society looks for young leadership. Given my advantage in those areas and given my experience, I am sure these will be advantageous for me. They (his rivals) have been in that position (deputy president) and people can see what they have done, and at the same time, I have been in the low position (vice-president), people can see what I have done. And they know my style of leadership, and the leaders on the ground can access what will be good for the party and community.

So you are saying that the delegates are matured enough to vote for change?

There are many things going on. There is a lot of intimidation, there are a lot of money politics, which I hear. Although I don’t practice that, I do hear (about it). I am talking about change. I don’t want to subscribe to all these. When I talk about change, I am talking about some new ways… people must genuinely support, then only we can lead this community. If there is no genuine support, then I think we are wasting our time.

Can you elaborate on the intimidation of delegates?

Sometimes when you go and see the delegates, they are threatened not to see us. A lot of things… when they express support, they come under intense pressure. All this is not good for the present generation, it will not look good in the eyes of the community.

On the issue of caste politics, you have been accused of campaigning along those lines?

Throughout the 49 years of my life, I have never been brought up in that manner. My family has never taught me all those things. I myself am not sure who belongs to which caste. I have never practiced caste politics in my life. I do not know who belongs to which caste, unless they explain to me. I have never done that. Although many people who claim that (accuse him), are the ones who practice it, but they put the blame on others who are innocent. The public is the best to decide, the public knows who preaches caste and who preaches money politics.
I mean, one can go and say ‘I don’t do this, somebody else does this’ but at the end of the day, each and every single individual in MIC and also the public knows as a matter of fact who preaches all these things.

Are you saying the president also does this?

Let the people decide, they are all informed about what is happening. I am not pointing at any individual.

Do you agree that the practice of caste politics is rampant in the party?

It rises during elections. This is not good for the party. When we talk about the Malaysian Indian Congress, I think we should represent all Indians irrespective of caste. I think our greatest challenge is that we don’t work along caste lines. We should try to integrate and unite the Indians. If we talk about caste, we are not going to unite the Indian community forever.

It is said that caste politics is one of the factors that turn away the younger generation from MIC…

I would not say it is rampant. It surfaces during elections, you can see that it is rampant (only) during elections, and then it disappears but rises again during elections, people tend to go along those lines. It is not a healthy trend for us.

How do you eliminate caste politics?

I think it all comes back to the leaders. We should always avoid ourselves from this kind of political campaigns. We should just go on our own merits, ‘What I can do’, ‘What kind of changes can I bring for the community’ and ‘How can I improve the lot of the community?’. If we go along those lines, we can revamp.

There is also the perception that you are ‘tainted’ with regards to the Telekom shares issue scandal. How do you think this negative perception will affect your chances?

This is an issue which arose in 1991/92. It is now almost 18 years. After nine years (following the issue), I came into politics, I was the political secretary (to Samy Vellu), I became a member of parliament, where I won (the Teluk Kemang parliamentary seat) by a majority of over 5,000 votes in the by-election, I became the secretary-general of the party, thereafter in the 2004 general election, I won with an 18,000 vote majority, I was promoted to a deputy minister, I also won the (MIC) elections as vice-president. And when election comes, there are no other issues, and they try to plant things and create issues out of nowhere and try to taint somebody’s image. This is very unbecoming of present politics.

I think one must go on one’s own merits. I have a first class honours degree in business administration from University Malaya, I don’t think any other Indian has achieved that yet. I also have a second (class) upper degree from University of London in law. Colleagues of mine have done well in their lives, I have sacrificed my whole life for the public, and today when I see these kind of things, I am sure many other youngsters or professionals will never want to engage in public life (by entering politics). But still I take it as a challenge.

Let people say what they want, the public knows what is right and what is wrong. They know about my integrity, I will go on that. I will go on public perception, not on individuals’ lies which is being spread around. When you don’t agree, they come and taint you and you are a useless man, when you agree, you are a great man.

It is wrong to say that it is an individual perception, to a certain degree, it is the public’s perception because of your association with the matter.

Those things have been answered and cleared. People are now trying to bring back the same issue, just to tarnish one’s image. This is a smear campaign that is going on. I have gone so far in politics, today you can see how organised my campaign is, so the only way (for his detractors) is to smear one’s name. I am not going to smear anybody’s name. I am going to go on a very clean campaign and go on merits.

If people believe in me, believe in the change, if they support me, I will do what is necessary for the community. If they are going to believe in this smear campaign, there is nothing much I can do for them.

Critics are saying that it is not the second tier, but change is only possible if the president steps down.

He has indicated that after these elections, he will give way to whoever is elected. This is known to everybody.

But now he is saying that he might stay on…

That has to be decided by the MIC members. If we don’t embrace change, we have to face the consequence of it. I firmly believe in that. You can deny, but you cannot run away from that fact.

Do you perceive him as a stumbling block?

It all depends at the end of the day. The decision has to come from the members or the delegates. They have to make the bold decision. If they want to remain relevant, they have to be brave enough to make the decision. If they don’t want to, I think nobody can change our destiny.

Based on the feedback, do you think the delegates are ‘brave’ enough to make the change?

I am very confident about that.

The president has already named his preferred choice. If someone else wins, will it create further divisions like what is happening in MCA?

The problem that we are facing now is the perception of the community. It is not the problem over the choice of one individual. It is the community’s perception that we have pay heed to. If we don’t do that, we have to face the wrath of the community.

You can go down to the community and find out what is their preference, what they expect. Remember, at the end of the day, it is the community that makes the party, it is not the top leaders that make the party. If the community says it wants this and that, and if we don’t pay heed to that, we are gone.

Going back to the earlier question, if you win the deputy presidency, and you have all these ideas for change but a president who disapproves of your presence there. Would this not be a stumbling block?

The president cannot disapprove when the choice is made by the delegates. It has to be accepted. That is what leadership is all about.

But would he not make it difficult for you…

No, no, no… one man cannot deny the decision of the majority. How can that happen, no way... let it be any of the three (who is elected). It has to be accepted. If you cannot accept it, then you can’t be a leader.

Critics say that MIC’s glory days are over and it cannot regain lost ground. Do you agree with this?

I think we are on the verge of that. That is why I am talking about change. If we are not prepared to embrace change, we must face the serious consequences. The community is expressing a lot of interest in the MIC elections, they are looking forward to how these elections is going to take place, what will happen. This is what is going to give them hope or… these elections are very crucial to MIC.

Some say that this (your decision to contest) was orchestrated…

Let me make this very clear. There is no orchestration. I have made a very clear, a very bold decision, I am going for broke. Either I make it or I forget about it. There are no two ways about it.

If you are defeated, what will be your next plan?

I think the best is, whoever wins, led them lead the party. I am not going to get involved, and be a nagging point.

Will you quit politics?

That, I will decide after Sept 12.

So this is a ‘do or die’ battle?

Yes, for me it is definitely a ‘do or die’ battle. My intentions are very clear, very sincere. I have all my positions in the party, but I have made this bold decision to go for broke simply because I believe change is inevitable. I believe in this change (for MIC) to remain relevant. Only then is there meaning to my existence in MIC. If that doesn’t happen, I don’t think there will be any meaning to my existence in MIC…

Did the president try to talk you out of it?

Nobody tried to talk me out of it. As a matter of fact, they know when I make a decision, I stand firm by my decision.

Was the president surprised by your decision?

No. He knows that I have made a decision. I think he knows very well about the whole situation. I am very surprised by his late decision to put back his choice of candidate.

Was it a wise choice? How do you rate his line up?

I wouldn’t want to do any rating because I only have one vote to cast like any other delegate. Let us look at the wisdom of the delegates.

Critics also say that Barisan Nasional component parties, including MIC, are too subservient to Umno. Do you think this attitude must change?

In politics one has to speak without fear or favour. You must speak your mind. If you feel something is right, you must stand by it… when you feel something is not right, you must be able to speak up. There should not be any fear or favour… because in politics, we are there to determine the future of the community. Every single decision that you make, affects the public. We must speak without fear or favour, and do not look at the feelings of one or two individuals in any particular group. That is the best approach… I do not want to dwell on the past, let me look at the future.

Since the 2008 elections, has the re-branding exercise of MIC brought about any change or has the party remained stagnant?

I think we are going through a very crucial test now. That will be answered by the delegates. Rather than me answering that, I will leave it to the delegates to answer (in the elections). They will be able to give an indication as to whether we paid heed to the calls for changes.

There is also the perception that the rot is far too entrenched from top to bottom in MIC. Will the members be willing to embrace the change or is the party in need of a complete overhaul?

They have to. My personal opinion is that we have to embrace change.

If one day you become the president, how different will the party be?

You will see that for yourself. Believe me.

Some have accused you of money politics?

I don’t have money, I have not been in any employment since the March 8 elections. I have devoted my time to the activities of MIC. Since March 2008, I have been at the MIC headquarters virtually everyday, working for the party… at that moment, all these so-called people were never there. Nobody was there, everyone abandoned MIC. They all believed that was the end of it. But now when elections come, everybody is there. When I was busy campaigning, people say I don’t turn up at MIC. The last three months, I have been busy campaigning but before that, every other day, MIC leaders and the public know that when they come to the MIC headquarters, I am always there to serve them.

This is what people should look at, I never ran away from my responsibilities. Despite having professional qualifications, despite being admitted to the Bar, I can always go back and do something on my own. But I was not interested because I owe an obligation to the community, to the party, where I held various positions. Just because I lost the general election, lost my government post, it means that I can run away, abandon this party and go? I stood firm by the party, through thick and thin I was there to make sure that things go very well and that we can bounce back. You can see whether others did it or not.

It was speculated that you were there every day in lieu of the promise that you would be named by the president as his preferred candidate.

No. It was not a promise. But I felt there was an obligation on me that when the party is going through a crisis, when most of its members of parliament and state assemblymen have lost their positions, you think it is wise for me to abandon the party and look after my own fortunes… I felt there was a serious obligation to work for the party at that difficult time and I did that wholeheartedly. Although I did go through a lot of difficulties in my personal life, I never shirked away from my responsibilities.

On the possibility of joining the opposition if you do not succeed…

I am very confident about winning this elections. I believe that change will take place. Change is the only way forward. It will take place. So let me stay focused on that.

So you will always be true to BN?

Yes.